Creating Sustainable Value in Music

Robin Malau
Okay, we're live. Hi Didier!

Didier Zerath
Hi, hi Robin, how are you doing?

Robin
I'm very good, I'm very good. How are you? How are you? You look great, man.

Didier
Great, fantastic, fantastic. Absolutely happy to be here and happy to reconnect with you. It's been quite a while, isn't it?

Robin
Yeah, it's been quite a while. since 2017 in Mu:Con, South Korea. That was the last time we met. I mean, we met only once probably there. But...

Didier
Wow. Yes, we did.

Robin
Yeah, but it was a great few nights because we have a lot of free beers at night. So we always hang out in that...

Didier
Ha ha ha ha!

Robin
You remember that place? So we always hang out there and with others. I remember James from Southwest Southwest also a regular there. And then, and then it was Martin from...

Didier
Yes, yes, yes. There was a guy from Glastonbury. Wasn't there a guy from Glastonbury?

Robin
Yeah, no, James is from South by Southwest. The other one was, yeah, from Glastonbury. He's the booker of Glastonbury, also the founder of the Great Escape. Martin, Martyn Elbourne. He was also a regular (in the pub). And then, yeah, and then David Pichilingi from Liverpool Sound City. (Read: Showcase Festivals: A Launchpad for Emerging Talent"),

Didier
Yes, exactly. Cha cha cha, you have such a wonderful memory, tell me.

Robin
Yeah, because it was memorable. It was a great one week in South Korea. It was my first time visiting the country. I was amazed with the people that they could afford to invite. It was world -class.

Amazing week, amazing week!

Didier
I loved every minute. I loved every minute of it. And the only regret I have is that I would have loved to say a little bit longer because there was this festival starting, this independent music festival starting, I think the day I left all... And I think it was very, very...

Robin
Oh, okay. Yes sir.

Yeah, so I was... I extended the stay until three or four more days because there's another festival, Zandari Festa. So we continued the party over there. It's crazy, crazy night. It's just amazing. Yeah, I love... I love... Yeah, that's...

Didier
Wonderful wonderful. Well anyway, happy to be here happy to talk to you again and you know...

Robin
Yeah, welcome. Thank you for being here. Thank you for spending the time, this time with me. Okay, can we start with the question, Didier? Here's the thing though, I read your profile and it's just amazing. That's a long time you've been here. There's a lot of things that you've been achieving in this industry. It's amazing that we've done the music industry, I don't know where to start probably you could start with telling me how you get here to the music industry

Didier
So a little bit of... Well, you know, I have always, always been passionate about the music industry, about music. I'm a music fan. I'm a music passionate since, you know, young age, you know, since my teenage years, since I was 15. And my dream when I was at school was to become a sound engineer. Well, it didn't turn out the way I wanted.

I was told back then that in order to become a sound engineer in France, you had to study mathematics and physics, which I did. So I have a degree in physics, you know, and I just found out that that was not the way to go. So basically I left university, I quit university and I started working in a record store. I did work during a year and a half and then this German company launched its operations in France and it turned out to become BMG later. So we launched BMG in France in 1980. And I was a sales rep for BMG during six years until 1986. I was let go then.

And I started my first independent label. So I signed a few European labels and I had a distribution. I went quite quickly bankrupt. I was totally unexperienced, but trust me, setting up a company and hitting the wall is the best good that you can have, basically. So I got lucky and I was hired back then at EMI in Paris as a marketing manager in charge of developing artists. I did that during a year and a half and then I was promoted as a marketing director of Capital Records Continental Europe. I did that during three or four years then I was let go as they do.

And I did stay in London. I was offered positions in Brazil or in Nashville which I turned down because that was not my thing. Basically I started my first management company back then in London in 1993, 1994 and I did that during a year until I got a call from Warner in Paris looking for a head of international and a marketing director in Paris. And I thought it was about time to go back home and basically I returned to France. And I did work for Warner during three years, from 1994 to 1996 actually. Again, change of MD, change of people, new team coming in, old team out, again let go.

And I was tired at the time of this major record company, HR Policy, and the changes and the musical chairs. And my son was born. I became a dad in 1996. And I thought that it was time for me to make a big step forward and do what I always wanted to do, and that is to work closely to artists and to set up a management company. I did have my first experience in the UK with a band called the Dogs d 'Amour. They used to be signed to a label called China Records. China Records was at the time distributed by Warner. And while I was in London, I did attend some training, some classes provided by the International Music Forum.

It was called the IMMF at the time. So basically, I realized being in Paris all of a sudden that I was on my own, that it was a very lonely job and that even if I had 20 and some years experience in music production, I was quite ignorant of the live music industry and the publishing industry.

And I thought at the time that the best way to go was to set up a professional organization. And I set up IMMF France at the time. That was in 1999. And in the year 2000 with my Austrian, German and English friends, we did set up during Midem and Cannes, the IMMF, the International Music Manager Forum out of which I became quite quickly the treasurer at an international level, worldwide level, and the head of the European committee. Being involved with the IMMF and with the IMMF in France, I was invited to speak. Hence, me traveling the world, attending music industry events, speaking and talking. St. Petersburg can obviously meet them, Paris.

Toronto, Seoul where we met, Taiwan, St. Petersburg, Bari in Italy, Israel as well, Luxembourg. And that gave me the opportunity to meet people from the European Commission. So I went to Brussels and I set up a meeting with them, went to Brussels, and that's how I became an expert for the Directorate General for Education and Culture from the European Commission. And that's how we decided to launch Music Moves Europe, which was a program to help the music industry to grow. And it became bigger and bigger and bigger. And that's the way it was. And so basically, I'm now a manager in France, I did set up another professional organization called AMA, the Artist Managers Alliance, which I have left. I've left AMA as the presidency. After 20 years being an activist for managers around the world, I decided it's time to take care of my own projects. And I moved my company from the UK because my company was based in London, was an Ltd, a limited company in London. I moved it to Paris and I created my label and I created my publishing.

Robin
That's the DZ factory.

Didier
My company is called the DZ Factory.

Robin
Okay, okay, um... So you've been living in the... I saw you educated in Babson College. Is that the American Babson College?

Didier
It's Babson College in Boston.

Robin
Yeah, yeah, because I had my master's degree in entrepreneurship and one of the like the bible of entrepreneurship was released by a professor from Babson. I cannot remember who the name was but that's how
how I know Babson College. So you've been in America for a year, yeah?

Later I remember that it was Jeffry Timmons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffry_Timmons

Didier
No, I studied at HEC in Paris. HEC being actually ranked number one executive MBA in the world according to the Financial Times. In HEC, they have partnerships with a university in the US. And this one was Babson. That's how I came to spend a week at Babson. And I spent a week in Japan.

Robin
Oh, okay.

Didier
...and I spent a week in Japan as well. So we had just one week seminar in Babson about entrepreneurship. But that was a wonderful experience. I loved it. I loved every minute of it.

Robin
Gotcha. So how does education help you to decide (where your career is going to)?

Didier
Education, the education I had. Basically, the reason why I wanted to study, I did an MBA at HEC is because I felt, okay, I had somewhat considerate vast experience, amount of experience, from working in record company and being independent and blah, blah, blah. But I was missing really mastering a toolbox. And basically taking education and training in terms of strategy, finances, accounting, IP laws, management, leadership, they sort things out, they put things in order somehow, you know, ordered my world. And I can now rely on tools, you know, if I want to put a business plan together, which I did recently.

Okay, I can really put something really serious together, market research, strategy, marketing, etc. And I think it was something that I needed to go through in order to become a better professional. And I would encourage everybody at some point to follow some courses, some training.

I'm a strong advocate of ongoing training during your career. I mean, we probably will talk about the evolution of our business, our trade, and we will talk about probably new technologies. I could easily now take a course in Web 3.0, in NFT, in blockchain, in cryptocurrencies. I could take a course
take a class in artificial intelligence, et cetera, et cetera. We are in such a fast-paced world, and you need to keep focused, and you need to be at the forefront of every new technology, and you need to. So going back on a regular basis. We did even discuss it at Midem during a year where if we want to be a trusted third party like a lawyer or like an accountant, lawyers in France have each year to follow some classes to keep up to date. And I think that this is also an obligation we have. It's not a legal obligation, but it's at least a professional obligation I think we have to keep updated on all new technologies and what's going on.

Robin
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so you mentioned that you wanted to work closely with artists, yeah? So how did you choose or how did you choose to work with an artist. What did you see from the artist?

Didier
That's a tricky question. I mean, I'm a very emotional person. So first thing I need is to feel confident I can work with the human person. So choosing human being, putting human relationships above all comes first to me. Then the music comes second, surprisingly maybe, but for me the music comes second. And obviously emotionally same thing, you know, I mean, you don't listen to music only with your head. You listen to music with your head, with your heart, with your stomach, with all your body. And if I feel something, you know, and if on top of it, I feel that I can have a great human relationship, okay, with the artist, then I will give it a go. It would be easier for me to work with a human being. I get
always. But I might not be a fan of its music rather than being a fan of the music and not get on with the person.

Robin
Hmm, interesting.

Didier
My priority goes to human relations.

Robin
Right, right.

Didier
...and to very, very strong value.

Robin
So you're kind of (believer of) man management.

Didier
I am into artist management and I think that it's a role, a position that is really central in nowadays music industry. I'm very happy in this position because it's an evolving position. It's not the artist management as it was 20 years ago. Those days are long gone. But maybe we discussed in depth what artist management means to me. So basically, I love the whole set of periods talking to artists, the positioning, the music, the recording studio. If I want to make it short, basically, it's very difficult for me to explain to people what I'm doing.

Okay, because I don't write, I don't compose, I don't record, I don't take pictures, I don't shoot videos, I don't make the promotion myself, etc. So people are always wondering, but what are you doing? What is it you're doing? And basically the best answer I can come up with is I'm the one who make things happen. I create the conditions for things to happen.
So basically I'm involved from the very, very early stage, from the writing stage until the finished product and it can be manufacturing CDs or vinyl and distributed in South Africa or in Australia or in New Zealand and I control everything from A to Z.

Robin
Okay, so you are the... the other member of the music group. You define yourself as a manager.

Didier
Absolutely, I consider myself as a band member. And the beauty of the way we work today is that every decision is made in common. Everybody, even the musicians, the days where you said to the musician, just make music and let me deal with the business, those days are gone. Those days are gone. Basically what happens, I mean, that's what I found out over the past 20 years is that the risk, the entrepreneurial risk and the financial risk have gone up the value chain to the artist and to his manager. So it's an artist as an entrepreneur and manager as an entrepreneur. My job nowadays is to set up labels for the artists I'm working with, is to set up their publishing is to set up their touring company, their structure, and it's to run all of this. So I'm involved on the creative side, but I'm also very much involved on the business side. I create companies, I'm in charge of contracts, I'm in charge of finances, I'm in charge of marketing, I'm in charge of promotion, I'm in charge of strategy, of life, publishing, social media. I mean, that's all my responsibility. I drive all of this.

Robin
Okay, so you work mostly in Europe, yeah? So UK, I mean France, and then...

Didier
My playground is the world. I manage actually two bands. One band is based in Canada, in Quebec, that's Around Joshua, and another band based in France called Bukowski. Around Joshua is an alternative rock band, and Bukowski is more hard rock band.

Robin
I follow the industry in the UK and then the US and in Asia But I have no idea what's happening in Europe, but I know that France, Germany, and UK are in the top five as well as Scandinavian countries on the top six of a music market in the world. How do you see that this market evolved from your time when you're in the label and then you work with the EU and government and then international alliance and international organizations. How do you see that (the market) change or evolve

Didier
People outside of Europe or with little knowledge of Europe would make a major mistake thinking or considering or approaching Europe as one market. Europe consists of 27 countries, 28 with the UK. Well, you know that the UK has left Europe, has Brexit and they are on their way. But basically we have 27 in 28 countries, territories as I call them in Europe for the music market, for the music industry.

Those are 28 totally different markets. There is no unity in the European market. You have 28 different territories. You have 28 sets of different IP laws. You have 28 different sets of collective management organization. You have 28 different sets of labor laws, of working laws, of accounting systems of languages, of promotion, et cetera, et cetera. Let me give you an example, if I may. If you have a US band touring Europe for promotion, for example, they come to Paris over a weekend, you will reach 80 to 90 % of your target. In Germany, you would have to go to Berlin, to Hamburg, to Cologne, to Frankfurt, to Munich. So you would spend a week to achieve the same kind of volume that you would achieve in France over two days. The French market is 70 % French speaking, 30 % international. Germany is much more international.

South of Europe, Italy, France, I mean Greece, Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, we are very domestic repertoire driven. Northern Europe, which is Germany, Belgium, Holland, Scandinavia, the UK, are much more international music driven than we are. The French market is the slowest market in the world.

Any US band coming to tour Europe, they will still promote the first single in France, they will promote the second single in Germany and probably the third or the fourth one in the UK. In the UK, the lifespan of a single is very quick, up, down. In France, you can work a single during a year, a year and a half.
If I start promoting a single, if I want to have a hit single in the summer in France in 2025, I would probably release it now.

So basically, every single territory in Europe is totally different. We don't have the same structure for our collective management organization. We don't have the same set of IP laws. So it's not the same. I mean, SACEM is not the same as GEMA, is not the same as the PRS in the UK. They have different rules. They have different ways of calculation, calculating the rights that needs to be paid to publishing companies and the creative community. The average revenue per stream is probably different in every single territory for a very simple reason. In every territory, you have a different market share structure for the various platforms, streaming platforms. Spotify is massive in Northern Europe. Deezer in France is much bigger.

So if you calculate and take into account the market share ratio, you have an average price that is completely different in France or in Germany or in the UK. The UK now is very complicated now for us and Europe is very complicated for them because of the Brexit. So now, for example, young acts who want to tour Europe they have to apply for working permits.

They cannot tour Europe as they used to before. So in terms of admin, in terms of paperwork, in terms of visa costs, it's much, much more expensive for young English bands to come and tour Europe.

So basically, if you are based in Asia or if you are based in the US or in South America, I mean outside of Europe, again, considering Europe is one single market would be a major mistake. And you wouldn't have and I would strongly.

I would strongly advise you to really select the territories and the strategy you want to apply in Europe. Because you're never going to break a 27 or 28 markets overnight. You're going to stretch yourself too thin, you're going to waste time, waste energy, waste money. Select your territories, decide you're going to start first in Germany or in Scandinavia or in Italy or depending on your music genre, depending on your relations, depending on the team that you can put together, on your budgets. But you have to be very, very careful in terms of strategy and in terms of planning.

Robin
I think I now remember that you told me about this, especially about the IP, because I now remember that you explained that. But we were like intoxicated back then, so it's kind of blurry. Hahaha. But yeah, yeah, now I remember that. And so now in the in the global stage because you have those experiences in the global stage as well. What is something that excites you most at this point? And then what is, what do you think the challenge is?

Didier
I'm still as excited as I was 30 years ago or 40 years ago. I think we are going through a very, very challenging, difficult period, but very exciting and very challenging.

Robin
Right.

Didier
The inception of new technology of Web3 technologies; blockchain, cryptocurrency, tokenization of the economy, decentralized finances, restructuring of the various value chain, artificial intelligence coming, being launched, etc. This will deeply, deeply, deeply... impact of our industry. So it's sort of an ongoing transformation process, you know, in a very interesting movement. And I think that nowadays it's really fascinating. That's number one. Number two, what keeps me excited, what's keeping me excited is I read an amazing sentence the other day. I don't remember if it maybe was on social media. And the sentence said, “you start growing old the day your regrets take over from your dreams”.

Robin
Hmm, interesting.

Didier
And I'm still dreaming. And I still don't have any regrets and I'm still dreaming. And I still want to set up companies and sign new apps and try new, go down new roads and new productions and meet new people and travel the world and experience and meeting wonderful people. I met incredibly interesting people in my life. It was amazing. Amazing.
You know, this other sentence, you know, saying, if you're passionate, you know, you're never going to work one minute in your life. I've never worked in my life.

Robin
Right.

Didier
I'm a workaholic. That's all I think about. You know, it's music, music industry, signing new acts, new promotion, new strategies, new marketing, new ways of producing, new funding, how do I get money, new contracts, new everything, new pictures, new videos, social media. That's an obsession. But I don't have the feeling that I'm working. I'm just having fun.

Robin
Alright.

Didier
And as long as I'm having fun, and as long as I'm going to keep dreaming. I'm going to be excited. That's what keeps me going.

Robin
So that's the excitement part. Do you have any experience or I mean of course you do. Can you share what stops you sometimes? Like what makes you like, ugh, this can't be done. I need to change something before I can do this. Because you... Okay, so here's where I frame my question. Because you create an international association, organization. That's for tackling something that you see in the industry, right? Because you want to change that and then you understand that you cannot solve it by yourself.

Didier
Yes.

Robin
...you need alliance, that's why you create that (IMMF). So I think that's something that you see challenging and then want to solve it.

Didier
I told you I'm a very emotional person. I would agree with you 100%, you cannot succeed on your own. That's impossible. You need to meet people. Meeting people will broaden your horizon, will broaden your approach. You will discover new ways of working.

I love working with other people. I love making friends, making new connections, meeting different cultures. I'm very curious, very, very curious. And the older I grow and the more I'm opening myself to other people. I dislike self-centered
egotistical, selfish people. I don't want to work with these people. I want to work with people who open up, who share their culture, their love, their smile, their knowledge, their connections. If we don't help each other, being small independents with very scarce financial resources, if we don't help each other, we fail. The experience I had from setting up the IMMF and traveling the world is I have friends in Canada, I have friends in the US, I have friends in Taiwan and I can turn to every major market in the world and ask in Australia, in New Zealand, who's the best independent distributor? Who would you recommend for that type of music, for that music genre as an independent PR company or marketing guy or agent, et cetera, et cetera. And I can have access to worldwide information in a heartbeat.

And that comes from opening up. It's called empathy. And that's it. To me, it's, I mean, you need to be generous. You need to be generous of your time, of your ideas, of your skills. And if you give, people will give you back.
And that's how you meet wonderful people. Look, we met, we met, I mean, we met obviously seven years ago, haven't been in touch since, you know. But here we are, you know, here we are. And if tomorrow I'm in LA and I guess you're based in LA, you know, I'm going to make a phone call and I'm going to say, come on, Robin, let's have a cup of coffee. You know, and I'm sure that things I do like this one project I'm working on called Bukowski.

Robin
Yeah.

Didier
I know a tiny little bit of your musical taste, but I think that that's a band that you could appreciate. And I could well ask you and say, well, do you know any independent PR company for hard rock music? Or do you know any agent that would be worthwhile near me approaching? Can you introduce me? And vice versa. If you need any assistance, any help in Europe, just let me know. If I can help you out, I'm going to put you in touch with whoever needs, I mean, if I can, if I can. But I will do my utmost to help you out. And that's, I think that's the way it should be.

Robin
Yeah, if I may comment about how did I think of you when we met in South Korea? I think you were from that group of professionals, like very high level professionals, you were one of the most person that take me seriously. You take my words seriously. And I was like, this guy like really humble, like you are approachable. I was surprised to see the knowledge that you have and the experience that you have but you still like take this random guy from Asia seriously. I was struck by that. And then that's why when I started this podcast, one of the very first person that I want to contact was you, because I know you are approachable. And that's amazing, Didier. It's a gift that not everyone has. And that takes you far so far.

Didier
Okay. I'm still in touch with students I had five or six years ago and who have gone back to India or to Japan.

Robin
Right.

Didier
You know, yeah, you know, this, okay, yeah, I like, I like quoting famous people, you know, it's, I think it's Nelson Mandela who said, you know, either I don't know and I learn or I know and I educate other people. But I never lose. It's important. You can give away. Who cares? It's not important.

It's not important. And what is important to me is to meet people, to open up, you know, and to have conversations. When I teach in my classes or if I'm attending a panel, OK, believe it or not, but I think I learn more from the audience or from my students than what I give away. It goes both ways, you know, so it's important, you know, and being arrogant or, I don't get it. I would have loved to have met 30 or 40 years ago somebody like me.

But, you know, so if I can help you take a shortcut, why wouldn't I do it? What does it take away from me? It doesn't take anything away from me.

Robin
Yeah. So how do you think, I remember your presentation was the Future of Artist Management. I mean, you've seen a lot. And probably in everything that it's in (music) existence today. How do you think artist management will evolve in the future? How important it is going to be in the future in the music industry especially in where artists has needs to find a way to make money. The old way to make money is gone now and then to find new ways.

Didier
20 or 30 years ago, as I said at the beginning of our conversation, I studied mathematics and physics. When you study mathematics, you learn that for a condition to be true, it must be necessary and both necessary and sufficient. 30 years ago, being talented was both necessary and sufficient. Now for an artist to be talented, is necessary is not sufficient anymore.

Robin
Hmm. Hmm.

Didier
The artist needs to be market savvy. He must be an entrepreneur at heart. He must understand marketing. You must involve the artist in every single decision-making process because he needs to understand, and rightly so. He wants to understand and he needs to understand. And that deeply changes the relation you can have as a manager with an artist. Because basically, as you rightly pointed out, I'm an additional member to the band, but I can also set up a company, a production company, where I'm a shareholder and where the band members and myself, we're all shareholders. So that changes completely the relationship. It's a new definition of management. I mean, some people will tell me, but Didier, that's no longer management.

Of course it is management to me. And then you set up the company. So basically you're responsible for every business decision and everybody's a shareholder and every shareholder knows exactly what he's got to do. Some have had some, some the mission is to write songs or to write music or to play drums or to be a bass player or backup singer. And well, my, my job is, as I said, it's legal finances, strategy, marketing, promotion, distribution, etc. You know, conflict sorting, planning, budgeting, raising finances, etc. etc. That's my job. And that's the way I work with artists. I need them to get involved in every single decision we make.

So we discuss everything. An artist will easily understand. Let me take an example. If you don't involve an artist in the financial side of things, he might want to have a nice hotel.

If you make him clear that you can have a very comfortable hotel half the price, so that the money that is saved can be put into production and into hiring an additional musician or choosing a better graphic designer or whatever, he'll understand it and he will accept it.

Robin
Yep.

Didier
So artists are mature entrepreneurs. They have to be business sensitive. Not to the extent that the market is driving their creative process. You don't write for the market. You have an integrity in terms of artistic creation and artistic freedom and freedom of creation. That must be key and that is not negotiable. Artistic integrity is a very, very strong value.

So that's the way I see things. That's the way I, that's the message I try to get across to the artists I'm working with. You know, they are, they are very intelligent and very understandable people, which is something that we might have ignored 40 years ago.

Times have changed, artists have changed, the market has changed, technology changed, artists have to change, everybody has to change. If you don't change, you're going backwards.

So you have to stay at the forefront of new technology, of all the issues, all the questions that are going through, all the challenges that the music industry is going through. And this is something that you can acquire, that you can do by attending music industry events, attending panels, talking to students, teaching classes. It forces you to keep yourself updated. I cannot afford not to be updated about the latest technology or the latest issue. That's not possible. I have to have an opinion because people will expect from me to take a stand.

So I'm constantly working newsletters, magazines, newsletters, information sheets, reports, market studies, resources. I go on to every single music industry organization. They have all of them. They have resources, market studies, and government resources, cultural resources. So, you know... budget per capita, you know, cultural habits, you know, where do they go, where do they buy, you know. Our business now is very much data driven. You know, so I want to know everything about my market. I want to know where do you buy tickets, how many concerts do you see, you know, how much do you spend, how do you go there, when, what day, what place, what, you know. The more I know about the fans, the better I feel.

And this, for example, leads me to look into artificial intelligence because artificial intelligence will help me streamline and be more focused and be more efficient in terms of marketing strategy to implement, in terms of costs, et cetera, et cetera. I used to work in major record companies.

Robin
Yep.

Didier
We could lose some money, you know, was not important. I'm independent. If I spend one dollar, I must get one dollar back. I cannot afford to throw money out the window. So every tool I have that will help me, you know, being very efficient and controlling every return on investment I make, you know, and the efficiency of a dollar invested, I need to take it. I need to be aware of it. How to better communicate. I have set up with the bands I'm working with some collective management tools. Like I use Slack, and I use all those apps, for us to be constantly in touch, without sending emails and attachments and, collaboration, improve collaboration, use collaborative tools, et cetera. It's amazing.

I can do nowadays on my own, on my little computer. I can book TV campaigns. When I was a marketing director at Warner's, I needed to have a marketing manager, a product manager, an agency. I mean, I would employ 10 or 15 people. Now I can do it from home. I have much more tools, powerful tools, now as I'm independent, than the ones I had when I was a marketing director at Warner.

Robin
So, yeah, I based in San Francisco Bay Area, in Silicon Valley (to be exact). So this is where everything happened in AI, in the latest technology. And I see it's a common theme here that people are talking about technology. I connect it with music as well. I'd like to ask your opinion about companies like Suno, and any other AI generated music. What do you think of those trending?

Didier
I was very, very, very, very angry. Very angry.

Robin
Okay.

Didier
I'm managing Around Joshua. I've been working with the band for three years. It took us two and a half years to write ten songs, to find the money to produce the ten songs, to hire a world-class music producer. We hired a Danton Supple who produced Coldplay, who produced lots of major rock stars.

We recorded 10 songs end of late 2022, early 2023. We have been promoting and raising the profile of the band during 2023, 2024, and the album is going to be released early 2025. So basically it took us a three year period between the moment where we decided to write and the moment we will release and deliver a 10-track album onto the market. Boomy, Suno, all these companies were talking 20,000 tracks per day. Per day. Okay? And they do this using the money, the music that we create. They don't create anything. They just mix music. And it's literally, literally shocking to see these people shamelessly using what we do, downloading it and mixing it into a new sound. These people are in the music business only to make money. That's all. They don't nurture acts, they don't sign acts, they don't work with creative people.

They don't have no idea what it is to write a song, to produce a song. They have no clue, no idea. They're only in there for the money. So I have a very simple and maybe very brutal way of thinking. Force people to declare when they use AI driven sounds and don't pay them any royalties. Nothing, not one penny. And if the money drives out, they're gonna go away. Those are not music industry. It has nothing to do with what we are talking about since the beginning of this conversation Robin. Nothing.

Robin
Hmm.

Didier
I can understand. It will not affect everybody at the same speed and with the same violence. But advertisements, music for advertisers, why the hell would they bother paying record producers and publishing companies money in order to use a track to sell cars or beauty products or whatever when they can just ask an AI at the chat GPT, write me a song like Madonna with Taylor Swift's voice and looking like (whatever) And in five minutes it's done.

Soundtracks, advertising, sync rights will be the first to be threatened.

So again, again, you know, the music industry was at the forefront when we switched from vinyl to CD. It was at the forefront when the internet was launched in the year 2000. It's now at the forefront of artificial intelligence. Okay. We are always, always at the forefront of every major technology jump. And each time, you know, we get ripped off.

Robin
Hmm.

Didier
I'm sick and tired. It's unfair. We need to be protected. We need lawmakers to step in.

Robin
Right.

Didier
So we have an artificial intelligence act in Europe being discussed and being implemented at European level. But it's never going to happen in the US. Because the copyright is not the same as our droit d'auteur. It's not exactly the same. Our IP laws, at the heart of our IP laws, are the writers and the performers. At the heart of copyright laws in the US is the circulation of music.

Robin
Okay.

Didier
It's not the same. We want to protect people and we want to protect work. They want to make sure that it circulates, that it generates cash, money, quick, fast.

Robin
Yeah.

Didier
Art is emotions. It's an emotional process. I don't want to sound like I'm against any tech progress. That's not what I'm saying. But it must help us become better. Artificial intelligence, if it helps me in terms of having a more efficient marketing strategy, yes. But artificial intelligence, I read, I mean, you studied, I studied, you know there's an advertising on social media, write your master's essay in 10 minutes, 100 pages.

Robin, it's nonsense!

It's nonsense. Technology as an end doesn't make any sense to me. If it serves our purpose to create money, to create emotions, to share emotions, share a vision, share beauty, share smiles, share love, share ideas, I'm up for it.

But if the only thing it's doing is that it's taking my book or my music production or my video images and it turns it into something else and it makes shitloads of money and I don't make nothing then I'm seriously angry.

It takes us, you know, creating the creative process is craftsmanship. It's like something you do with your hands. Distribution is a global approach. You produce locally, you distribute globally. So the industry is the global bit. It's the distribution, the marketing and the promotion on a worldwide level. But you create in the intimacy of your emotions.
and somebody will rob it and do something and even not tell you and make shit loads of money? It's insane! It's disrespectful! Am I an old fart having strong values like this? I hope not! And the funny thing is, when I talk to my students,
Well, they share the same feeling. They are very worried about all these technologies.

Are you going to go to a concert and see a 3D image? Where's the emotion?

Robin
No, I personally won’t.

Didier
I like the small venues, I like the feeling that when I'm at the bar, I'm having my drink, I paid my ticket, I'm part of the show. It's because the artist on-stage feels comfortable, is happy. He's going to deliver a great show. You've done it in your life. You've followed probably bands and did two or three or four concerts in a row in different cities following a tour.

But if you do it, you will see that every concert is different, even if it's the same setlist. It's different because people react differently, because the sound is not the same, because the emotion is not the same, because you might be tired, you might be happy, you might be whatever. It's an emotional experience. It's something we share as human beings.

I'm not against technology, you know, I'm against people exploiting technology to make a quick buck and then take the money and run. That shocks me.

Robin
Okay, so you mentioned about the government needs to interfere. What do you think the essential that needs to be regulated on this new era?

Didier
They are, in my opinion, when you use artificial intelligence, you should be forced to declare it and say this piece of work is based on artificial intelligence. And honestly, I'm going to make a side step here.

It is a serious threat to the music industry and to the cultural industry in general, if it takes pictures and if it makes videos and movies and write books and poems and whatever. But the use of artificial intelligence in terms of politics, in terms of rewriting history, deepfake manipulation,

It's a nightmare.

It's a nightmare.

The next step is mixing artificial intelligence and emotions and feelings. And having algorithms where the machine will be able to put itself in the same mood or emotional state as you and respond to it having a girlfriend which is a robot is not something very sexy to me. So we have to control it before it's too late.

"But I'm experienced enough to know you don't fight technology. I remember when major record companies tried to ban downloads, it turned into a total catastrophe. You don't fight technology. You have to deal with it.

But a year ago, or 18 months ago, nobody was talking about artificial intelligence. All of a sudden you have it everywhere.

So we're not going to fight it, but we must limit abuses or let it be detrimental to the creative community."

Robin
Right. I agree. It's a really, I don't know, it's suddenly appear and grows exponentially. And then companies like Suno, they got like millions (dollars) of funding only by taking,
lifetime thinking and work from other people and they make a lot of money.

Didier
Exactly. And meanwhile, we are starving.

Robin
Yeah.

Didier
Meanwhile, we are struggling to find the resources to produce an album, to write a song, to go on stage. It's totally disrespectful.

So it depends what kind of world we want to live in. I want to live in a world where the creative community, where artists, where culture, where art is still exist. That's what makes people free.

It's education, it's culture. That's what's making people free. It's music, it's art, it's painting, it's videos, it's novels, it's books, it's poems, it's pictures, it's graphic designs, whatever. It's wonderful.

Robin
Like freedom, we need to fight for it. That's the key of your your ideas correct?

Didier
Yes, absolutely. Oh yes, absolutely. And we gave in to everybody. We gave in to the platform. So the music industry is, I mean, the recorded music industry, we don't set the prices for our productions anymore.

Nobody's asking us, you know, how much the monthly fees, you know, for these or Spotify or Apple Music. It started at 9.99, then it goes to 10.99, then it's going to be 11.99 when it's going to stop. We're not being questioned. So we don't control the pricing structure of our product. That's number one. Number two, we didn't even, we've lost control of the format.

Radios, FM radios were dictating we want songs three minutes ten, two minutes fifty, no intro, no outro, bang into the chorus, you know, because if the intro is too long we lose audience etc etc. One of my favorite bands, our favorite bands, but you will agree with me that Led Zeppelin is one of my favorite rock bands.

Robin
Hmm.

Didier
Right? Take a track like “Kashmir”. Okay? And take the music structure of Kashmir. When it grows slowly and it grows and it grows and it grows and it grows and it grows. How can you put together a radio edit? Radio will say no, but the intro is too long. We don't want this. Who the hell are they?

So radio is telling us the format, platform is telling us the pricing structure, artificial intelligence, I mean the soon of this world ripping us off, hold on a minute.

Of course it's time to be angry. Of course it's time to be proud of what we are doing. We create value. We must be proud and we must stop caving in and giving in to all those big tech corporations or radios or platforms.

There are nine million artists signed on to Spotify. Can you imagine if tomorrow morning the nine million organize a takedown and there's not one single fucking track on Spotify anymore?

Robin
Alright!

Didier
Of course we have power. We don't use it. We don't know how to use it. We are not organized to use it. We don't think about it.

But we are creating a value. We don't benefit from the value. That's also something I teach to my students. If you look at the value chain, the value is created upstream, but the profit is captured downstream. So those who create the value do not capture the profit. And this is wrong. And this is wrong.

And I still have, after 40 years, this capacity to be upset and to be passionate and to want to fight these people and fight for the rights of artists and composers. All the musicians I work with, you know, they have real serious difficulties making ends meet. It's difficult for an artist.

Robin
Right.

Didier
It's only 0.1 % of the artists having released productions on Spotify, 0.1 % who are generating a turnover above $100,000 a year.

Robin
Okay.

Didier
And you're going to say, yes, for $100,000, lots of money did you? No, it's not. It's less than $10,000 a month. And you have to fund your private life and the wife and the kids and the mortgage and the house and the food and the holidays and the school tuitions. And you have to fund your business and rent studios and hire musicians and write and come with less than $10,000 a month. It's fucking ridiculous.

It's 0.1%. Can you imagine? Something's wrong.

Of course something's wrong.

Robin
$100,000 a year gross income in where I live now in America Is considered as poor. For $100,000 yes in San Francisco Bay Area. There's not even one percenter anymore, less than that. Okay.

Now...
Those problems aside, the work that you do with European Commission, with the governments, what you do currently in the industry, what project are you working on right now?

Didier
Well, I've been an activist in the music industry for the past 20 years, since 25 years. I stepped down from all the professional organizations I was involved with and I'm focusing on developing my label and my artist roster. I'm dedicating 100 % of my time into my artist roster developing my company.

Robin
Right. How does it go, Didier?

Didier
It's difficult, you know, it's financially struggling. This being said, I knew what I was going into. It doesn't come as a surprise. I didn't expect to make money, but I don't care. It's not my problem. You know, I'm not in this business to drive a Ferrari. That's not what I'm in this business for. Every money I make, every penny I make is invested into music productions. I don't take holidays.

Robin
All right.

Didier
You know, again, my passion is, are those sound and wise investments, it's probably questionable.

I mean, but again, I'm not looking at the short-term return.
When I started working for BMG, we distributed a label called Arista Records. And we had this young band, English band signed on to Arista. First album flopped. Second album flopped. Third album flopped. We gave them the contract back. The fourth album released by Virgin, they sold millions, millions in the world.

Robin
Mm-hmm.

Didier
I'm a firm believer that great work takes time. If you like food, you have the quick food, the fast food, the McDonald's of this world. It takes two seconds to make a sandwich. And then you have the great restaurant, where it takes hours of cooking.

That's what I'm doing. I want to take hours and time and give myself time and give the artists I work with time to do things properly, to look back and say, I'm very proud of what we've done. If it doesn't work. It doesn't work. But what I've learned over the past 40 years is that there is no relation between sales figures and quality. It's not related. It's not related.

Robin
Right. Right, I agree, yeah.

Didier
I know albums who sold maybe 2,000 copies, you know, wonderful albums, fantastic albums. Honestly said, PSY, Gangnam Style, I wouldn’t have signed it.

Robin
Ha ha.

Didier
You know, and people were like, oh, Didier, you made a mistake. No, no, I'm not interested. I'm not interested. This is McDonald's to me. I'm not interested. I don't care. I'm happy people make it. I'm happy people enjoy it. I'm happy people made money. I'm not frustrated. I'm not jealous. I just don't care. It's not my world. My world is somewhere else. The first question I asked to a band, to a young artist I'm going to work with or I would love to work with is give me your definition of success.

Why do you want to do this? Why do you want to do this? It's not going to be an easy road. Why do you want to do this? What are you expecting in return? You want success? Everybody wants success. Define success. You want to be like a boys band, you know, unable to go in the street without having 15 or 20, year old girls running after you?

Or do you want to be perceived as like quality, you know, and you have a little market here and there and worldwide, you know, you make a decent living. But you're proud of your craft, you're proud of your work. It's not the same. It's not the same attitude, it's not the same culture, it's not the same strategy, it's not the same respect to yourself.

What do you want to do? Why do you want to do this? And are you prepared to face the consequences of your choice? I work with bands, you know, with whom I can develop it from the beginning, from A to Z, as I told you before, on a worldwide basis, okay, and developing 5,000, 10,000 fans in France, 20,000 in the UK, 20,000 in Germany, a little bit in Scandinavia, some in Canada, some in the US, and all over the world. 100 to 150,000 fans. And they will come to the show, and they will buy records, and they will buy vinyls, and they will buy merchandising, and end. And that's what's... And they can grow and we can grow old with them.

You know, that's the kind of music I want to fight for, that's the kind of band I want to be involved with. And that's what is important to me.

If the one hit single happened worldwide, hey, welcome. Has it been anticipated? Has it been planned? Have we negotiated our integrity in order to achieve financial success? No. No.
No. Be true to yourself. Be true to what you believe in. Be decent. If you lie, your fans will notice.

Robin
Good!

Didier
Your fan will notice. And we are, and my job today is to build an emotional relationship and when you disappoint emotionally somebody it's like a betrayal. It's like a love story coming to an end.

Respect your fans, know who they are, reach out to them, co -create with them, take care of them, respect them, and you get it back. And you get it back.

Long term, long term, not short term, long term.

Robin
Right.

Didier
People are quite sometimes surprised, you know, people are sometimes surprised when I say, you know, in order to go to be fast, take your time. Somebody may consider what I'm saying old fashioned, old fashioned, out of date, blah, blah, blah. I don't care.

I don't care.

If you build it up, it's like a house. Nowadays you want to start putting the roof. Build foundations first. Build foundations, take time, build something solid. That's the kind of artist I want to work with in my rock, from alternative rock to hard rock. Right, space. That's the identity I want to give to my label. That's the identity I want to have as a person. That's how I want to work with the artists I'm working with.

Robin
So that's what you are doing with your artists Around Joshua and Bukowski. And then other than that, you also right now is teaching in Master program?

Didier
Yes, absolutely.
Yes.

Well, and I teach, right? And I teach in two Master programs, you know, and I would be happy. I mean, considering the way I work, I cannot manage 10 acts, right? That's impossible because that would be way too time consuming. But I would be happy now to sign the third act. I'm still having space for a third act, you know. That could be, I do a tentative with a band based in Australia, it didn't work out. Maybe a band based in California, it didn't work out. It's complicated, considering the way I work, that everything clicks.

But I still have some space for another act, you know, which could be tomorrow English, German, whatever. I don't care.

Robin
Yeah.

Didier
Again, you know, I mean, my playground is the world, you know. It's a world.

Robin
So that's the label and then the teaching... How is the teaching goes, Didier?

Didier
The teaching. Well, I have two, I'm working for the time being with two universities, business schools. One, I mean, both, I mean, the level is a master two, okay? Master two or sometimes even between master and PhD. And one is a course in English and one is in French. But it's about the music industry in general. And I love teaching to my students. I love my students. Because again, it's interesting because I asked them to challenge me, to disagree with me. I don't like it when they just take notes and are happy and you know. No, challenge me, tell me I'm wrong.

Robin
Who are they? Are they artists? Are they music industry executives? So who are they?

Didier
No.

They are students, they are 22, 23 years old, they are finishing their master's degree, they want to work in the music industry later. Most of them, most of them, they want to live to work in the live music industry, more on the live side of things. A few want music productions, but hardly anyone wants to go into music publishing.

Robin
Hmm.

Didier
...which is a mistake. I think music publishing is very interesting as well, you know. And it's a sector that didn't go through any major crisis during the past 50 years, you know. In and out, but you know, I mean, there's always a little bit growth, you know. I mean, they didn't go through the same difficult times as the recorded music industry since, you know, since basically 1985 or the live music industry or the way the live music industry is going to evolve because, in my view, the live music industry has not totally finished its merger and acquisition process. And I think that the Live Nations and AEG of this world, I think you're still going to have, like in the music industry, you're going to have three or four major companies, you know, with controlling most of the market worldwide, and then some very small local producers, you know. That's something that has to be monitored as well, you know, it's the evolution of the live music industry.

Robin
Why do you think there's less interest in music publishing? Is it too complicated to some or because it's different generation?

Didier
No, because music publishing is the only B2B sector. So students do completely ignore, they don't know it exists. They go to concerts, they buy records, or they listen, they stream music. But why would they be aware of music publishing and what a music publisher is? So I think it's a profession, it's a business that is unknown from young up and coming executives.

And that it should be promoted more because it's a wonderful job. It's a wonderful... I mean, you know, if you like writing, if you like composing, if you like words, if you like playing with words, you know, putting teams together, crafting songs, you know, it's an amazing job. It's amazing. And I've worked with Joe Cocker or Tina Turner. They never wrote a song in their life. They were just performers. So I remember when Joe Cocker's manager wanted to schedule or started thinking of a new album and he was making phone calls to all the major publishing companies and saying, come on, send me songs, send me new material, this is what I want to do, blah, blah, blah. It's amazing.

It's a beautiful job, you know. And in France, SACEM, which is now the number one collecting society in the world, they take very good care. They have pension schemes, they have health schemes, they have training. They have, you know, it's a very strong organization. very very strong organization. So it's very important.

Robin
We have almost two hours already and it feels like only half an hour or it's like really the intensity of the the talk is really really good. I feel like I'm growing a few brain cells right now.

There's a lot of things that I learned today, Didier. It's crazy. I think one of the things that I really enjoy doing this podcast is because I used to work with professionals, but on a capacity as a professional myself. So I need to pitch my thing to other professionals. Right now, I shut the fuck up. I shut up and I ask a lot of questions. And so I learned a lot more and I'm like, it's mind blowing that you guys do is just crazy. The dedication, the...

Didier
Thank you.

Robin
...the passion, you give your life to your craft and that's amazing. That's highly respectable and I'm glad that I connect with you again and then I'm glad that I started this project because it's just amazing. Yes.

Didier
But Robin, that's my luxury. My life is luxury. It's luxury. I'm privileged. Even if financially struggling, it's complicated, it's difficult. But that's not the purpose. The purpose is to be, I feel privileged.

I'm rich of my experience. I'm rich with the people I meet, with the conversations I have, with the dreams I have. That's what's making me rich. It's not a matter of having a big car and a big house and lots of money on your bank account.
No regrets. Never. And still dreaming.

Robin
Right, that's amazing, that's amazing. Okay, so what would you say to to your student or to people who wants to get into music industry now. Because it's been, you know, it changed a lot and then I'm sure you have the vision or you're seeing something in the future in the music industry. So if someone wants to get in now, what would you say to them?

Didier
What I'd say to my students is be passionate. Be curious. Be open. Take risks. Open up to other people. Build teams. Create your network of people. And don't be afraid of failing.

You fail, get back on your feet, start all over again and start again and start again and start again. And you will fail and you will be discouraged and you will be frustrated and you might be depressed. There's a lesson to learn from every mistake you make. Mistakes or failures are more educational than success.

Stay humble. Question yourself every morning. Every morning it's a new day, it should be a new you. Be full of doubts, be full of questions. The day you stop questioning, the day you start being certain, thinking that you hold the truth, this day you're dead because you stopped moving. And it doesn't matter. Do it. Don't do it for the money. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. You know. and give, give to people.

Be generous. And have strong values. I'm too old to work with people who will backstab me, who I don't trust, who I don't respect. I don't want this. Trust your gut feeling. Trust your instinct. Develop your intuition. Nothing's going to happen to you. Do it, it's worth it. It's a nice journey. It's a beautiful journey. And you meet wonderful people. I spent a week with Quincy Jones. I spent time with Neil Young. I spent time with, you know with the Red Hot Chili Peppers, I spent time with Phil Collins, it's just amazing. I spent time with Whitney Houston, I spent nights with Joe Cocker.

Amazing time.

It's funny because at the time we didn't have any mobile phones, so no selfies. There aren't any pictures or anything left, you know. Thanks God, by the way. Thanks God, by the way, you know. Because something you wouldn't like to show. Something better, best keep something secret, you know.
Never talk.

Robin
Yeah, yeah, oh gosh!

Right, I guess I need to close this here, it's been wonderful. Do you have anything else to say? Is there something in your mind you want to talk about?

Didier
Hey! Let's do this again in seven months time.

Robin
Okay. Okay. Let's do that. Let's do that. Yes. Okay. Okay. That's great.

Didier
Okay, because I don't want to talk about things I'm working on now.

Robin
Hehehehehe... Okay, seven months then it's...

Didier
Yeah, early, early 2025!

Robin
Okay, I'll put on my calendar now. So it's going to be...

Didier
Okay, let's do it again in early 2025, you know, have a sequel, you know, have a second conversation and then we can take it from here.

Robin
Let's do that. Let's connect again early 2025. Alright, I'll do that. I'll do that definitely. I'll reconnect with you. At this moment we need to close.

Didier
Okay.

Robin
Yeah. I think it's a perfect time to close this. I would like to thank you. This is a privilege to me. I can speak with you in my podcast. So I'm really, really thankful. Yeah, I'll be in touch after this.

Didier
Okay, and I send you some music so we can talk music, okay? Perfect, okay. It was wonderful talking to you Robin, was wonderful catching up.

Robin
Please do. Thank you, Didier. You have a good one.

Didier
Wonderful talking to you and let's keep in touch. Okay, so talk to you soon. Bye bye and bye to all your listeners and thank you for having me. Great time. Bye.

Robin
Yes, please do. Thank you, Didier. Bye-bye!