Robin Malau
Hey, Orbis! How you doing, man?
Orbis
Hey, hi. Good, good. It’s been a while. Very nice to see you.
Robin Malau
It’s been a while. It’s been a while. Same here, same here. That’s a nice room. You own quite a few books and records there.
Orbis
It’s just some old stuff.
Robin Malau
Right, right, that’s nice. Alright, alright, Orbis, let’s start, okay? I always know you as a music guy since the beginning. If you don’t know, the first time I tried to connect with you was when I organized a conference in Bandung, Indonesia, and Pi was recommending you. So you were on the top of my list since forever. And this is the first time I finally get you on my show. So I’m glad to see you here. Tell me about your background. How did you get into the music industry? Because you’ve been in it for a while.
Orbis
It’s been like a whole lifetime in the music scene. When people say music industry, we always think about how you create your first business or your first job. But I prefer talking about when I was in college — I organized some small gigs and small festivals with some friends. Back then I met many indie bands in the very early days, even for the Taiwan music scene. It was the very beginning of indie bands emerging and creating their own music.
Robin Malau
When was this? What year was this?
Orbis
That was around 1997, 1998. People began to create their own songs, their own music, organizing bands, organizing their own shows, which was becoming more and more possible. And I was part of that, so I got to know many people.
Robin Malau
Okay, okay. Cool. Go ahead.
Orbis
This is in Taiwan, yeah?
Robin Malau
Yeah, in Taiwan. All in Taiwan. I studied college in Taiwan and I got to know many indie bands. But after military service, I went to work for an internet company for a very short time and then very quickly went back to the music scene, because some other music people invited me to join their company and run a live house together. That was around 2005.
Robin Malau
Oh, okay. This is The Wall.
Orbis
Yeah. It was a really cool venue. You invited me once — I didn’t watch a show, but you invited me and we visited and you showed me around. It was really cool, man.
Orbis
Yeah, it was very cool. When I took over and managed the company and the venue, I remodeled almost every detail. That’s why I can easily explain every aspect of the venue — the sound system, the design, all the arrangements, everything down to the floor plan. That is where I began to be known in the music industry.
Robin Malau
Okay, okay. So The Wall is your first masterpiece, yeah? Your first thing that brought you deeper into the scene. Not that you weren’t already there, but you started to get more connections, more events under your name, more work under your belt.
Orbis
Yeah.
Orbis
Yeah, because back in the early 2000s, the Taiwan music industry was mostly about Mandarin pop music and mostly controlled by major labels — local major labels and international ones as well. They were not really interested in indie bands. They did try signing some bands but found it wasn’t easy to manage them — too many conflicts, and some bands were difficult to commercialize. They found a lot of problems.
Robin Malau
Hmm.
Orbis
While managing the venue, I tried to be the bridge to connect the indie scene to the labels and companies. I also brought some major artists to play the venue, which helped The Wall get known by many mainstream people — which was also very important. And the other side of it was that the early 2000s were also the days when major labels weren’t doing so well. So at that time, some creative people decided to do things on their own. They created whole records and only gave the master to major labels for release, without letting the label get involved in the production or even the creative direction — including the cover art. Some were distribution deals, but some still sold the whole masters to the labels.
Robin Malau
Right, so it’s distribution deals, some sort of.
Orbis
And even then, they decided their own cover art. They didn’t let the label get involved in the design of the cover art or anything — including promotion and everything. So there were so many artists who looked like indie artists even when they were working with a major label.
Robin Malau
Okay, okay. So how did you think The Wall played a part in that transformation, in that development?
Orbis
Sorry, pardon?
Robin Malau
How do you think The Wall influenced that? What part did The Wall play in that development?
Orbis
Okay. Because we created the venue and we worked with many indie companies — music promoters, indie labels — we tried to support every small indie music company. We created a lot of successful shows and made the venue more and more important for any promotion campaign. For example, even some film releases would do events at The Wall, because The Wall became like a hub for all the young, hip people. They always followed what events we had every month. So we became more and more important in the whole cultural scene.
Robin Malau
Alright.
Orbis
We worked closely with some indie artist management companies for sure — we always made plans with them and even did some touring support for them. But major labels also noticed the trends, so they came to us to bring their artists. We also made plans with major labels. So it was like people getting to know each other and collaborating. Especially in our music scene, major companies and productions also used a lot of indie artists to provide creative input. So very naturally, we became part of the process. I wouldn’t say it was because of us — we were also part of it. We naturally became part of the success of indie music in Taiwan.
Robin Malau
Right. So speaking of artists and development — you’ve managed quite a few bands, yeah? And promoted quite a few international artists. Tell me about that side of things.
Orbis
Yeah.
Orbis
So it’s quite interesting. Back in the early 2000s, even into the early 2010s, The Wall was kind of the only and biggest indie music company in Taiwan. We always thought about the whole music scene, not just our company, because if the whole music scene is expanding, we can naturally benefit. But if the whole music market is not going in the direction we hoped for, our business would be very limited.
Robin Malau
Oh, okay.
Orbis
So we always thought about how to develop everything — the artists, the music scene, even how music consumers behave. For example, when merchandise wasn’t very commercialized, we looked at how other countries were doing it. We tried to make merchandise more attractive to consumers and even educate them on how to buy and use it — how to get more people wearing band merchandise. And in other ways too, like getting more people into the venue. So very naturally, a lot of artists would come to us and ask for help. Should we play certain events? Should we play certain new festivals? How do we improve our production on stage? We also trained some engineers. It’s quite funny — I’d go to some indie artists and say, hey, you play good guitar, how about learning some audio engineering? We even created our own classes and trained people ourselves, then put them on stage to learn.
Robin Malau
Hmm.
Orbis
So we were doing everything within our own company. Even though it was just a venue, it was like the whole ecosystem for all the musicians and artists. So naturally, I became more and more involved with bands about their touring, their commercial shows, and their live production. More and more artists came to me, other companies came to me. So I decided, okay, let’s start a new company to do artist management and a label.
I started the label and managed artists first. At first, I thought we could work with record labels to distribute the music and CDs. But I realized the deals weren’t too good for us. I had actually helped friends run an indie label in the 90s, so I kind of knew how to DIY everything. But I combined that with knowledge I gathered from professionals at major labels — how do you do this, how do you do that. So I started the label. That’s how I began to manage many bands. And for international artists, the thinking was very simple.
Robin Malau
Alright.
Orbis
The thinking was — if we want to make our music scene more diverse and competitive for consumers, and even make Taiwan more connected with the international scene, we should bring more international artists. Even back in 2007, I made a plan to promote at least one international artist every month. It wasn’t really a business move at first — it was more of a cultural strategy. We wanted to bring new artists to our venue. Our venue could also learn a lot from how international artists handle production, how they do business. And I always invited dozens of local indie musicians and told them: you have to come see this show, you need to learn.
Robin Malau
Alright.
Orbis
And I could also connect them with the visiting artists — they could exchange ideas, that kind of thing. That’s what we were doing. After 2007, by 2009, we were promoting international or regional Japanese artists every week, and we followed that up by slowly upgrading the whole production design to international standards. That’s why a lot of international artists loved to play at The Wall — because almost everything was ready and we could easily meet their technical requirements.
Robin Malau
Right.
Orbis
Most people overlook that. Even people in the industry only think — okay, I have a space, I can rent it, I can buy nice equipment, nice speakers. They only know that. But they don’t know a lot of important details, like how do you load in, how do you load out, how do you create a comfortable space for artists?
Robin Malau
Yeah.
Orbis
And also, how do you manage transitions so quickly that you can do three shows in one day? That was kind of impossible for most people, but we did it — for years. Every weekend, basically, the venue ran 24 hours.
Robin Malau
Oh, that is nice.
Orbis
Yeah, that is a very funny thing to see how it works.
Robin Malau
Right. That’s really cool, man. So, okay — how did you choose who to invite? Like, you’d bring in international bands at a professional level and you wanted local Taiwanese musicians to learn from them. How did you decide who to invite from the local scene? What qualities were you looking for?
Orbis
For sure we needed to follow the local music trend as well. But we also sometimes tried to experiment. Basically though, we’re still very much an indie rock venue. And most indie bands’ music is still indie rock. So we were mainly focused on that. We did try some things — for example, some hip-hop indie acts — but it was very difficult because not many local hip-hop fans cared about indie hip-hop in our music scene.
Robin Malau
Ah, okay.
Orbis
Which was very sad. It was not successful. I still remember the show was really good, but we had very few in the audience. So we still needed to compromise with the market — we need to run a business, and it is not easy. When it comes to how I choose, usually I still trust my own music taste, to be honest. I think, okay, this music is good, this album is good. And of course I did a lot of research — what the critics say, following international music trends. When Pitchfork came up, I kept looking at Pitchfork all the time. And I also travel a lot — even how we met, in Seoul at the showcase festival.
Robin Malau
Pitchfork.
Robin Malau
Right.
Orbis
Because I like to dig and discover new bands myself, and also experience every local culture. I found that it’s very different when you go to a different place to see a show and experience the local music scene. I wanted to bring all these different music cultures to people in Taiwan, because in Asia we’re kind of isolated from each other. We do a lot of business with foreign countries, but we don’t really do cultural exchange with each other. So I liked to show what international indie artists look like. How do they survive? How do they handle production? How many people are in the touring party? How does the audience experience their performance on stage?
Robin Malau
Yeah.
Orbis
That’s very different from what you hear on a CD or digitally — that live experience is very important. And I would also prefer bands where the difference between their studio recordings and their live show is really dramatic and exciting — that makes it much easier to bring people out from their comfortable rooms to a live show. So good music, an attractive artist, and a great live show — those were the main considerations.
Robin Malau
Yeah, that’s actually something I never thought about because I never managed a venue. When I was in Indonesia, I always thought we needed to go out, learn what was happening in other countries, bring it home and adapt it for our context. But it’s really hard because it’s different. In your case, the international bands came to Taiwan, so the experience happened locally. That’s really smart. That’s the importance of managing a venue — you can bring people in and invite local artists to connect with them. That’s really, really cool.
Orbis
Yeah, if musicians have unforgettable memories at our venue, of course they want to play on our stage. I tried to make this stage more and more meaningful in people’s minds — because they feel this stage is amazing, this is a legendary spot they need to get on. Because I couldn’t attract artists with money. Taiwanese artists, if they’re popular, can easily get a lot of money in China or on bigger stages. It’s a small venue — only 600 capacity. We couldn’t attract artists with money. We needed something else — connection with people, the experience of playing on a legendary stage, creating unforgettable memories both on and off stage.
Robin Malau
Alright, alright. So it started in 2005 — that’s already 19 years. Wow.
Orbis
Yeah. A long time.
Robin Malau
Wow, that’s a long time. The Wall is older than my daughter. Okay, so there’s clearly a lot that local artists can learn from international artists.
Orbis
I believe so.
Robin Malau
Let me rephrase the question. What advice would you give to upcoming artists in Taiwan to break into the music industry?
Orbis
These days the environment is very different. For example, a lot of artists become very big in a very short time because of the internet — they can spread their influence quickly. So more and more artists are jumping straight to playing venues with 1,000 or even 2,000 capacity for their first ever show. And for me that’s not ideal, because you don’t have enough experience yet.
Robin Malau
Okay.
Orbis
You don’t know how the audience reacts to what you play. So I would recommend that they still start from smaller venues — 300, 500, 700 capacity. You can easily see the audience’s faces. In a smaller room you can feel the emotion flowing in the space. You can react to the audience. You can interact.
Robin Malau
Hmm.
Orbis
That’s the most important part of live shows. If you can manage that feeling, you can easily get to much bigger stages. But if you can’t, you can only go through the motions. A lot of things can be planned, but there are still so many things that are like chemistry — like dating. Even if you fall in love with each other, sometimes it turns bad. That’s how I feel about live shows.
So one thing I hope newcomers understand is that they should play more shows. Even when it’s not about money or promotion — it’s also about improving your live performance. And better live performance extends your career. It is your greatest weapon when you’re trying to promote new music.
This is especially important now because a lot of artists don’t even want to organize a full band anymore. They do everything on their computer, in their home studio. And when they go on stage, they just put together some session players. Which is a very different culture. Especially in Asia, I see a lot of acts that are actually solo artists but operate under a band name.
Robin Malau
Mm.
Orbis
So the live performance is often not that strong, especially for new artists. Even though I can see that a lot of musicians’ technique and creativity is better than it used to be — because they can learn so much on YouTube and the internet, find resources, even make friends with musicians from far away and travel more easily than before — I still think organizing a real band and building chemistry with an audience is something you can only develop through small shows. That’s one thing I feel is very important for new artists today.
The second thing is I would encourage them to seek professional advice. There’s too much information on the internet that is not 100% correct. Especially experience-based advice — it’s not easy to find good guidance online, because everything depends on the situation, the timing, and the specific artist. We provide different advice for different artists.
Robin Malau
Right, right.
Orbis
Which is very important in this business — there are maybe 100 different development paths for an artist. How do you know which path to take?
Robin Malau
Right.
Orbis
Professional advice covers a lot: contracts, music rights, production, live performance, tour planning, promotion — everything. Which means I’d encourage indie bands to work with professional companies. Not to just do everything by yourself. DIY is cool, I came from that background too. But after I got into the industry and worked with many professional people, I realized there is so much specialized knowledge and experience in this industry. If it’s possible and you can afford it, you should seek professional help.
What I find nowadays is that a lot of artists just start their own company, don’t work with anyone, and just hire one assistant to do everything. Especially in Asia — artists are very smart, they can contact anyone on social media. Hey, we want to play your festival. So they don’t need any agent, they don’t trust managers, they don’t want to sign contracts with anyone. And which is actually a bad relationship with the world, because this is always a team effort. No matter what.
Robin Malau
Hmm.
Orbis
You need at least one manager. Maybe he or she doesn’t know everything, but they understand you and they’re smart enough to find the right people when you need them. Need a good stylist? They find the best stylist you can afford. Need some production help? They find the right professional. I’ve tried to help a couple of artists with this — I always had to spend a lot of time trying to persuade them. And of course it wasn’t always a happy ending, but more than 50% of the time it turned out well. We managed to take those artists to the next level.
This open-mindedness and willingness to work with professionals is very important. Because sometimes — I’m not so old, but I’m from an older generation in the indie music scene — and sometimes we don’t even have the position to say, hey, maybe you should ask someone with more experience. Especially nowadays, young people kind of refuse to work with anyone more than five years older than them. They don’t say it outright, but you can feel it. They only want to work with the same generation. Which is kind of sad.
Robin Malau
Correct.
Orbis
Because when it comes to production, music writing, the touring business, music releases — I also see a lot of music releases where a lot of money is spent on promotion, but the people in charge of promotion have zero music promotion experience. Which is ridiculous and a big loss for the artists. In Taiwan, for example, a lot of artists spend millions of their own money, but they hire young people they think are cool, who have no experience managing the whole project.
Robin Malau
Oh, okay.
Orbis
They hire these young people because they believe they know everything. But then when I ask them — what is your strategy for this music video? What is the point? — they cannot answer. They just feel, okay, it’s a cool music video, we spent a lot of money on it. And if the artist is rich, okay, spend your money. But if you’re not rich and you need to save money for touring — like, you can’t even afford to hire a proper technician for your live shows — why are you spending half a million Taiwan dollars on a music video that gets 2,000 views on YouTube? That’s unreasonable to me. But everyone does it because every artist wants to be big, so they feel they need to do what big artists do.
Robin Malau
Hmm.
Orbis
How come Taiwanese artists always have very nice visual production on stage? LED, projection, very creative video design — it looks very expensive. And it’s partly a mindset thing. Because others are doing it, they feel they need to do it too. And because Taiwan has many professional concert production people, you can easily spend your money. But not everything is necessary. Even for arena shows you can’t do everything at once. You always need to make difficult choices. What do you want? What is most important? How do you best express your music and creativity? That’s why every show needs a producer, a manager, or someone to oversee that.
Because artists are not blind, but they are always blind to themselves. They can never see their own show. And I always feel it’s a big loss if more and more Asian artists don’t realize they need to learn and seek professional help.
Robin Malau
Right. Yeah, I agree with that. So that’s for local artists and their particular challenges in Taiwan. What about an international artist wanting to come to Taiwan — what can they expect? What kind of experience is available for them in Taipei?
Orbis
You mean for international artists?
Robin Malau
Yeah, international artists who want to play in Taipei, specifically.
Orbis
I feel in Asia, every music scene is very different. Everything — indie labels, small gigs, even festivals — is influenced by Western cultures. But in every Asian country, it develops locally in many different ways. Japan has their own very unique culture around shows. They even created the concept of the “live house.” Korea has its own different culture. Taiwan has its own as well.
But no matter what — I think for any artist, they should try to reach out to local labels, local promoters, or local artists they admire. It depends on what kind of music they play. They shouldn’t just Google a venue, think it looks cool, and try to book it. That’s a start, but —
Orbis
It’s better if they have some local help to connect them — to connect with good promotional media, to make some friends as well. Because if you get to know local friends, you create friendship, and people love to connect with each other across countries. So first, try to reach out to cool labels or promoters you respect. Ask them for advice — what kind of shows would be good for us? Which venue should we play? Which local artists should we play with? What kind of promotion can we try? There’s a lot of communication involved, and you need to work locally like local people.
That is very important, because promotion and playing shows are very local activities. You can’t just apply one approach across different markets. If you’re playing an arena show that’s another case, but if you’re playing a small indie venue, you’re still trying to develop your fan base locally. You need to connect with local people. That’s what I think is most important for any artist trying to enter a different market.
Robin Malau
Right, right. That’s really good advice. Connection and relationship are everything in this industry — it’s a connection business. I 100% agree with that. Okay, can I ask you about your work at Hermosa? Because this is not music, yeah? Can you tell me about that?
Orbis
Yeah.
Orbis
Yeah, that is actually a hair salon.
Robin Malau
Oh, okay. But you work with artists — musical artists?
Orbis
Hermosa is a hair salon and also a styling academy. We have courses to train stylists on new techniques and the creative side of styling. We have many clients from the music world — musicians, artists, models, actresses. And it’s actually a pretty simple and funny story. Back in 2017 or 2018, I had just closed my own company behind The Wall. The venue itself kept running, but I closed my own operation. So I was kind of in between things. And a very old friend of mine — a very famous hairstylist in Taiwan who had supported me for a long time — asked me for help.
Robin Malau
Hmm.
Orbis
He wanted to create a new company to help stylists do things properly — in terms of technique but also the role of the stylist. Because the truth is that many people who call themselves stylists are not really doing full styling work. People think stylists just make your hair look better, that’s all. But stylists can and should be involved in how the artist, the actress, or the model dresses — the whole look. And a lot of stylists don’t actually know how to do full styling. But anyway.
Robin Malau
Hmm. Okay, it’s kind of strange. Right.
Orbis
Because he had supported me a lot over the years, and he had also worked with many famous celebrities. So we were very close friends, and he kept coming to me with questions. Every few days he’d show up for five hours and ask me things like — how do I register a company? How do I hire people? How much should I pay for this role and that role? How do I make a financial plan? He didn’t know anything about the business side at all, even though he was very successful creatively. Because in the creative industry, you make money through your craft — you don’t need to know much about business.
Robin Malau
Hmm.
Orbis
After a few visits, he realized and asked me — can you be my consultant and join my new business? I actually kept trying to stop him. I told him, don’t open the company, it’s going to be too much work, it’s going to be a disaster. But he was a dreamer and you know how it is — dreamers are very persuasive. So I said, okay, let me help you. We started a company together and opened a hair salon.
Robin Malau
Okay.
Orbis
We designed the whole thing — the decor, even the floor plan. I changed the whole layout, how to arrange everything, how to make it cool and fresh. This was around 2018. And I also started consulting with the stylists themselves.
Robin Malau
Hmm.
Orbis
Trying to help them shift their mindset — how to work with artists, how to work with artist management companies. I’d been on the other side of that relationship, so I could tell them — okay, you need to understand the process and how they think. So I was kind of the bridge between two worlds.
And I would keep bumping into industry people at the hair salon, which was always interesting — people would say, oh, it’s such a coincidence that you’re here for a haircut too. They didn’t know I was part of the business. But it was actually very connected, because I found that the experience of managing the music venue and dealing with creative people — musicians, engineers — translated very directly.
Robin Malau
Right, right.
Orbis
We want to manage them from the company side, but they are the most difficult people for anyone to manage. And it’s actually exactly the same for hair stylists.
Robin Malau
Oh, really? Like musicians are already crazy enough.
Orbis
Yeah, and hair stylists are also quite something, actually. Because they feel they do everything themselves, so why should a company or a hair salon take a cut from their work? They have this mindset and they also compete with each other, because typically only one stylist works with one celebrity.
Robin Malau
Oh, okay. Good to know.
Orbis
Stylists have a very artist-like mindset, which I’m very familiar with. So when we started the company together, I knew what not to do — the things they’re afraid of. The people I worked with had been in the most famous, most successful salons. And when those businesses run into trouble, they often hire professional business management consultants, which usually leads to disaster. Because so-called professional business consultants typically don’t know anything about the creative industry — they don’t understand how creative people think. It’s the same in music — you can hire a professional manager for the inner workings of a big label, but if you put that person in direct communication with artists, it usually ends badly.
Robin Malau
Right.
Orbis
So all this experience from different industries and domains — different knowledge, different context — but a lot of things are very similar. How to run the business, how to communicate with creative people, how to make a brand or a company or a salon look cool, how to bring some cultural flavor and sensibility into a new business. That’s what I can help with.
Robin Malau
Right. So it’s a connection between two different fields, but still within the creative corridor.
Orbis
Yeah.
Orbis
And the cool thing is most stylists are music lovers. Even if they don’t know much about the music business, they listen to music all the time, they go to shows every month, they love music. So it’s kind of natural — they love to work with musicians and artists.
Robin Malau
Okay, so what’s your upcoming project? Do you have anything you want to share?
Orbis
Yeah, I’m working on a new festival, but it’s still in process. Probably in Taipei. But because there are too many unconfirmed details, I can’t say much yet. But after 10 years…
Robin Malau
Oh. In Taipei?
Robin Malau
But you are preparing a new festival, yeah?
Orbis
Yeah.
Robin Malau
When? This year? Next year?
Orbis
I feel it’s going to be next year. But you know, a senior friend of mine in Japan told me — you always say next year. Next year, next year. It’s been 10 years and you never organize any festival. He’s older than me so I can only respect him.
Robin Malau
Okay, so this is the time.
Orbis
I can’t argue. It’s not an easy job. But I am working on a new festival. I’m also consulting with some artists right now — one new artist and one already established artist who wants to grow. They’re already full-time musicians who can make a living, but they’ve hit a certain plateau and asked for my help to get to the next level. So I’m still doing some of that work as well. But the bigger project is trying to organize a new international music festival in Taipei.
Robin Malau
Cool, that’s cool. So I mean this is a standard question, but how do you see the future of Asian music? What will happen?
Orbis
Mmm.
Robin Malau
Not here — in Asia. I’m in America but I still feel like I’m in Asia because I’m talking to you.
Orbis
Is Asian music in scope for this podcast? Because I sometimes wonder — should you be talking to people in the United States, or people in Asia? Because you are from Asia.
Robin Malau
Right, yeah. Because I think…
Orbis
Yeah.
Robin Malau
When I moved here in 2018, after the events in Taipei, I didn’t really know what was going on in America. I was new to the country. I’ve traveled everywhere, but actually living outside of Indonesia — this was the first time. I didn’t know what to expect or what to do. I only knew we needed to move here and get our daughter into school and get a better education. That was the only thing on my mind. Then after a while, I was living in the San Francisco Bay Area and there’s a music scene here — a lot of clubs. So bands touring North America, if they’re stopping in Northern California, they usually play San Francisco, Berkeley, or San Jose where I was living. So there were a lot of bands. And I was pretty busy just being an audience member, enjoying bands that had been on my wishlist for years, because they never came to Indonesia. Going to America from Southeast Asia is expensive, so catching bands at European festivals was hard too. So I kind of enjoyed those first few years just being a fan — going to clubs by myself and watching bands I’d been listening to for 30 years. Why did it take so long? But I loved that.
Orbis
Mm-hmm.
Robin Malau
And then I think only a few weeks ago I started this project. Seriously, just started. Because I saw some friends went to the UK with the British Council, to The Great Escape and Focus Wales. I used to go on those trips — I was a British Council partner. So I can’t remember what it’s like anymore. I kind of missed going to showcase festivals, meeting people in the music industry, going to South Korea, going to Taipei, hanging out with people like you. And I thought — hey, I miss that. I want to know what’s happening outside of America. So I announced I was “retiring” six years ago.
Orbis
Hahaha.
Orbis
I knew one day you would be back.
Robin Malau
I was just going to focus here. But then I found some time and here I am. You’re my second guest already. And on my notes and planning now, I think I can get guests from around 30 countries — at least that’s what’s on the list. And I think it’s going to be unique from an American perspective, because American music conversations are mostly about America. Abundant resources, plenty of coverage. So when I look out and see what’s happening elsewhere — I want to grab that and bring it into the conversation here. I don’t know how far it’ll go. But at least I can connect with you guys again, talking, and maybe help promote things or connect people in America. Because in America, literally everything is possible.
Orbis
Yeah, of course. It’s a very big market.
Robin Malau
We’ll see how far we can go. Even if I can’t make major progress, at least I can connect with you guys again.
Orbis
You know, something very interesting — I’ve known you for a long time and even in the early days I was emailing with music people from Indonesia. But I’d never actually been to Indonesia.
Robin Malau
Hmm, but never? Until now?
Orbis
Never. Until last year — that was my first time. I went to Jakarta and also Bali. That was my first time ever going to Indonesia. And seriously, I was so impressed. I keep telling people about it.
Robin Malau
Oh, interesting.
Orbis
Indonesia would be like the America of Asia — because it’s big enough, the culture is rich, the energy is there. It’s a young country with a lot of young people, and it’s going to develop very fast and become a very important music market for Asia. I was so regretful that I hadn’t gone earlier, because I’ve known so many friends from there for a long time. But your question is about how Asia is going. To be honest, I don’t have many predictions.
Robin Malau
Great.
Orbis
I kind of don’t know how things are going to go as everything gets older and more complicated. It’s harder and harder to predict. But Southeast Asia — everyone says it’s going to be important, and I believe that. But it’s complicated, because different countries have different politics, different culture, different markets, different languages, even different religions. I still don’t remember which periods you shouldn’t organize concerts in Malaysia — that’s basic knowledge for anyone doing business there. And I’m not familiar enough with the different religious contexts in different countries.
Robin Malau
Right.
Orbis
So I think in Asia the culture is too complex and the commercial music business is still developing. There are lots of potential opportunities, of course. But in terms of music trends, to be honest, I still feel we’re following what comes from the United States and the UK. And for the mainstream market, everything is about K-pop.
Robin Malau
K-pop rules everything.
Orbis
I think K-pop will dominate Asian mainstream music for another 10 years. So besides K-pop, I think indie and local music — indie labels, singer-songwriters, rock bands — will actually become more locally rooted. We always talk about how to build bridges between different Asian countries, to exchange artists and music cultures. For example, for a long time we’ve been the bridge between Japan and Taiwan. We can easily bring new Japanese artists to Taiwan and Taiwanese artists to Japan. And nowadays more and more young people in Taiwan are discovering Korean indie bands. Five or ten years ago that was hard to imagine. So I guess very soon, young people will start discovering indie music from other Asian countries too. It’s not so much about commercial business — it’s more about cultural exchange. If artists and industry people can realize that and approach it more from a cultural purpose —
Orbis
— then Asian cultural exchange will become more and more active. But there are also some threats. In Korea, for example, big companies are trying to buy out everything — artist catalogs, management, everything. It’s the same in Japan — some companies fall, some get bigger. It’s all about large capital and big companies using money to influence the industry.
Of course, the industry always needs money to create new things. But I worry about where it’s all going. There’s more and more money, but people are cutting each other’s throats. It’s not like we sit down and discuss — okay, we have more resources, how do we use this to create something better? Instead, you have people with huge money who sign a cool artist and, based on past experience, that rarely goes well. We’ve seen it too many times — people with big money signing artists they don’t know how to manage. They think, I have money and resources, I can do it. But that’s not how it works.
Robin Malau
Hmm.
Orbis
I have to say nowadays in Asia there’s much more money than before. It’s a big opportunity, for sure. But I also worry. Because music culture — it always relies on time. You need time to develop an artist, to develop a music culture. You need to create a generation that follows and supports a music scene. That’s a difficult job, and it takes time. But if it becomes just a money game, it’s going to be very difficult for everyone.
Robin Malau
Okay, that’s wise. Okay, so — I forgot what I was going to ask you. While we’re here, you mentioned K-pop and it reminded me of something. Was it during the late 90s? There was this huge Taiwan pop phenomenon, F4 — and it was really big in Indonesia. They had a concert at Senayan in Jakarta, like 50,000 people. And then they were gone. What happened? I know that was before K-pop took over.
Orbis
Hmm?
Robin Malau
F4. And it was really big — Indonesia, the Philippines, Japan… and then now they’re gone. What happened?
Orbis
Yeah, F4. Yeah, they were huge across all of Asia — even the Philippines and Japan.
Robin Malau
K-pop came and then what happened? Do you know?
Orbis
Actually, F4 is from a TV series, right?
Robin Malau
Yeah, it’s a drama. Meteor Garden.
Orbis
Meteor Garden, 2001.
Robin Malau
Yep.
Orbis
So the problem is actually about the structure of Taiwan’s TV production industry — which I also found out is nearly an impossible job to fix.
Robin Malau
Sorry, it’s Meteor Garden, 2001.
Orbis
2001, yes. So from the 80s and 90s, Taiwan’s TV production was very strong across all of Asia. And in the early 2000s, this drama was very successful. They used a Japanese source material to create a Taiwanese production. It was based on a Japanese manga.
Robin Malau
Oh, I didn’t know that.
Orbis
Yeah. The manga was very successful across basically all of Asia, and the Japanese didn’t adapt it into live action — but the Taiwanese did. So it was kind of Japan and Taiwan working together to make it huge.
And actually Taiwanese are very good at this. For example, in the 90s, a lot of K-pop was released through a Taiwanese company, a Taiwanese label called Rockmakers. Taiwan was like the first wave of exporting K-pop to the world — through a Taiwanese company. So after that, the problem became the structure of TV production in Taiwan.
Robin Malau
Yeah.
Orbis
In the early 2000s, Taiwanese people kind of started losing confidence in their entertainment industry, and too much money was flowing into technology companies. The structure of TV and film production was also very old — Taiwan was ruled by the KMT for a long time, so they controlled all the TV stations and everything. When Taiwan liberalized, everything got opened up, and then the internet arrived. So TV stations started getting weaker. They didn’t have as much money anymore, didn’t have the ambitious plans to do big productions like Meteor Garden or license big Japanese properties. And things got weaker and weaker in Southeast Asia.
And one very important thing — for a long time, a lot of professional money, talent, and resources all went to China. A lot of people made huge money there. China opened up many TV stations in different provinces, with huge resources and huge money. So for about 20 to 30 years, a lot of creative people and professionals moved to China to be consultants, to be high-level managers. For Taiwan, it felt like the talent and energy were all draining out.
Robin Malau
Oh.
Orbis
So it’s not very active for TV production — there are many factors combined that led to this result. I can only share what I observed. After that, Taiwan could no longer create a drama that was big and popular across Asia, because people believed there wasn’t enough money and all the cool professionals had gone to China to make a living or to try something bigger and more ambitious.
The good news is that in the last five years or so, more and more people are moving back. I think there’s a very good chance in the next 5 to 10 years — at least for TV production. Maybe something amazing will come very soon. We all believe that, because we’ve been developing from the bottom up for the past five years.
Robin Malau
That is good to hear.
Orbis
Everyone is trying to build the structure — how to get investors, how to build entertainment funds to invest in new dramas and films. There are many institutes training new talent and professionals. And there are some new works that are very refreshing — not like before, where it was always top-down because the TV stations controlled everything. That era is gone. We’re creating a new structure.
For now I have to say our TV production is still not fully where it needs to be — it’s still influenced by the old days in many ways, but it’s getting better. One example: recently I was consulting on a TV show about bands, a music-focused show that will air on a TV station in July. And the experience of working with a TV station — this wasn’t my first time, but I was still kind of shocked. It’s 2024 now.
Orbis
But you feel like people at the TV station are still living in the 80s or 90s — how they think, how they make decisions, how they work. It’s very sad. Because there have already been some other shows that worked really well. There was a hip-hop music show last year that was very successful.
Robin Malau
Good to hear.
Orbis
So now TV people are very interested in making music shows, whatever kind of music. The hip-hop show last year — the production quality, the design — was very cool. And that’s because almost all the crew were from the music and concert industry. The camera work, the music, the design, the concept — all very YouTube and concert-influenced. And it was very popular with younger audiences. So now everyone wants to try. But it’s not an easy job — it’s not easy for a TV station or anyone to change their work culture when they’ve been doing it one way for a long time. Even for myself, I can’t claim I could easily change. It takes time. But I feel it’s going in a good direction.
Robin Malau
Right.
Robin Malau
That’s good to know. Despite the challenges, there’s something good waiting on the other side, and you guys know what it takes to get there. I’m really pleased to hear that. Do you have anything else to say? I think I have so many stories from this conversation — it’s been an incredible hour and a half. I’m really glad we could connect again. Anything you want to add?
Orbis
Yeah.
Orbis
Yeah, I’m very happy to connect with you again and talk. It’s been so long. And I always say — just like myself as an example — I tried other businesses, I tried to leave the industry.
Robin Malau
Yeah, man.
Orbis
So I tell most people: if you’ve ever been in this industry, you can never leave. You will return one day.
Robin Malau
Right, that could be a curse or something. But so far I’m enjoying it. I learned a lot in the past few weeks interviewing old friends. I’m getting updates, my brain is working correctly again — should I say that?
Orbis
You.
Robin Malau
So yeah, do you have anything else to say?
Orbis
Yeah, I think I said a lot. And of course, we could chat for another six hours.
Robin Malau
Alright, alright, alright. So I’m really pleased to have you here. Yes, yes, yes. This is probably not the last time I’ll do this — I have some other ideas in the future — but this is a good start. Thank you so much. I’ll see you again sometime soon. Cheers, brother. Bye bye.
Orbis
Yeah, thank you so much. So happy to see you. Cheers, bye.
End of transcript.
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