G2G - From Grunge to Government

Robin Malau
Let's go! Yo, Py! What's up, brother?

Piyapong Muenprasertdee
Hello. Hi. Hey Robin. Ah, life has been busy for me.

Robin
Oh, I can see that. I can see that. You just got back from UK, yeah?

Py
Correct, I just went to see the Focus Wales and also The Great Escape.

Robin
That's nice. The Great Escape. I mean, I haven't been able to Focus Wales, so I don't know what to ask. The Great Escape is great.

Py
The Great Escape is great. The Great Escape is great, big, lots of people, lots of content. So for the viewers and listeners who don't know, The Great Escape has like thousands and thousands of delegates. I think it's like three thousand, two thousand, this year. And there's been, I don't know, hundreds of bands. Yeah, on the cross of like three days, four days.

Robin
Yeah. And that's like, like business audience. Yeah.

Py
No, well the delegates yes, those are there for business, but the audience are there's also normal audience so in the ten thousand I think

Robin
Oh, that's quite a number for a city as big as Brighton. I think it's... So how do you see it's different compared to... When did you last go there?

Py
I went there last time was last year. So last year I went to three conferences and showcase festivals. First one was Liverpool Sound City. The next weekend was Focus Wales, then The Great Escape. So three weekends in a row. But this year I only did two. Yeah, Liverpool, yes, Liverpool, Wrexham and Brighton.

Robin
Okay. Liverpool, Brighton and Wrexham.

That's nice. All right, all right. We met at…, no, sorry. You have something?

Py
Oh, I was just going to say apologies to the listeners and viewers that you might hear my baby girl playing around in her playpen around here. So, well, the perks of working at home means that you get to be with your kid.

Robin
Yep, yep, exactly, exactly. So, fine. We met at Music Matters, two thousand...

Py
Music Matters 2015.

Robin
Yes, correct. 
So, I want to know how did you get to the music industry?

Py
How the journey started quite a while ago before I actually was able to get in. So let's say that I was a music lover. I fell in love with Nirvana's “Heart Shaped Box” when I was 13. So I was born in Thailand, but I grew up in Indonesia, then Singapore, then moved back to Thailand when I was nine years old. And when I was...

Robin
Hmm, I didn't know that you grew up in Indonesia.

Py
Oh yeah, I was in Jakarta between 1980, let's say, 81 until 82 or 83, went to Singapore, then came back in 84, stayed until like 85, 86, and then back to Singapore from 86 on. So I used to speak Bahasa with my nanny, but totally forgot and...

Robin
Oh, interesting. Okay. Yeah, of course. Right.

Py
After a few months in Singapore. Okay, but then back to Nirvana, that was like 1993, I think. ’93 or, yeah, ’93, when I went to visit my mom's host parents in Virginia. So my mom was an exchange student and I met with this Thai kid who was born and raised in Charlottesville, Virginia and I went to his basement. So he was a musician at school back then but now he's graduated from Berkeley. So he introduced me to grunge, let's say that. And we were watching MTV, I watched “Heart Shaped Box”, I asked him like, who is this? And he said Nirvana and then I went on an obsession of buying all the Nirvana cassette tapes I could find when I came back.

So that started my obsession with grunge and rock and metal and then I wanted to become a rock musician basically. But my parents, especially my dad, was a strict person so that music was not really, you know, encouraged. So the first electric guitar I bought, it was when I was around 15. It was during the school holidays. A friend of mine and in the group of friends, his dad runs a stuffed animal factory. So we went to sell dolls on the street, stuffed animals on the streets. So we ran away from cops and everything. That was fun. Made some money and my mom helped me with the rest.

So I got my first Epiphone Les Paul and got an amp Ibanez. I still have it now. And my dad scolded me and my mom for buying such an expensive instrument and accused me of trying to become a professional musician. So I had to hide my playing. Also, this was also the same for my sister and brother.

But now my sister is in one of the most famous indie bands from Thailand. They're called Yellow Fang. She's the bassist. I know you're a fan. Yeah.

Robin
Oh, I know Yellow Fang. They played in South Korea in... Or was it in Taipei?

Py
Oh, they did South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Summersonic twice. They did South by Southwest 2019. So Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Philippines, I think, not sure about Philippines, but they also did Hong Kong and India, at least. Now this...

Robin
Oh, that's nice. Okay, okay. Oh, good to know. Good to know. Yeah.

Py
This is starting to become a long story, but to cut it short a little bit with my obsession and also trying to become a musician without my father's notice, I had to do it on the sideline, meaning that I had some bands during university days, master degree days, and then eventually during my education in the States, I was at West Virginia University studying engineering. I was able to start a band in Thailand when I came back, met the members, we started a band a few years, got us a good single that got on like indie radio, was on to charts but then we broke up. But that got me a little bit to understand the independent music scene. And when I went back to the States for my master degree, MBA,

I was able to intern at a music startup called Indie Ambassador. They had a platform called PressKit 2. It doesn't exist now. I interned for them for two months, graduated, then continued just staying with them for another eight. So it took me like three emails, three phone calls before they said like, okay, come into the office and let's talk when I applied.

Robin
Right. Where was that? What city was it?

Py
This was 2012, wait, 2011, 2011, when I started nagging them to get an internship. And the reason why they didn't want me was, one, they were busy and very small and did not have money to pay me. So they told me up front and I said, like, I didn't want the money, I just want the experience. So they let me in and then,…

Yeah, with that eight month internship, I also tried to understand more about the independent music scene in the US. But the thing was, my background before coming to the US that last time was that I worked as a consultant in sustainability and climate change. So sustainable development was one of the knowledges and… things that we use, right? So, the little, little, little fact, fun fact was that my specialization was in carbon footprint accounting, calculations, green building certifications, energy savings, energy efficiencies. So, totally doesn't sound like it's related to the music industry, but it actually, it is a basis for everything that I do.

So I see things as an ecosystem and I try to find out like what parts, how each part works with each other. And the concept of sustainable development, you need to see three big parts: social, economics, and environment. Environment doesn't mean just the trees, the planet, but it also means like the ecosystem surrounding that.

Robin
Right.

Py
I mean the environments around that ecosystem it also means like government, laws, regulations, all that stuff. So I figured out that the ecosystem in the US and in Thailand are totally different and that's why independent musicians over there and here work in very different ways. So I figured that the only way to really develop the music industry in Thailand, which was what I wanted to do, is to...

Robin
Yeah, I agree with that.

Py
…improve the ecosystem. Thus, I now also, apart from the music company that I work for and with and also co -founded, is that I work with the government in some ways. I'm a member of the Subcommittee on Music under the National Soft Power Committee. So we are, we work in, you know, writing new policies, funding schemes projects to elevate the music industry. So that's quite a long story.

Robin
Right, right. There's a lot of information. But dude, I didn't know that. I mean, I know... I noticed that you are something when... In music matters, I don't know if you remember, but I pitched you an idea of a startup. I think it was like a cool startup. So I pitched it to you. And then you came back to me the next day or at the same weekend and then you brought your notes and then you tell me your assessment, you assessed what I pitch you so I'm like, this dude take this thing seriously, like this is the first time probably I've met someone in music industry that take things (that) seriously...

Py
I honestly don't remember.

Robin
Yeah, I remember that. That's why that's... When I, remember when we have the... music conference that I manage in Bandung, Indonesia? You were my first guest. Because I know, like, oh, this guy. So... How do you think... I mean, you say it in the. You mentioned already, but how deep or how uncompromised of you doing things in the music industry compared to what you learned in school in the States. Does that make sense? Does my question make sense at all?

Py
Doing things in the music industry compared to...

Robin
How would you compromise with your values? Like you said, your background is in sustainability and ecosystem. How would you compromise with building the music ecosystem in the country like Thailand, which is, I assume, is not far away from Indonesia.

You know, cause, you're dealing with people who are... have no idea what's, you know free minds.

Py
Hmm... Corrupted?

Okay, hmm, I guess it's my mindset that stemmed from my own mental illness. All right.

Robin
Because I remember, um, you, was it in South Korea? Cause you were..., there's a problem with the bands... band always create problems. Uh, and then you were like, I still remember that you, you were pissed and like... bands. They do that all the time.

Py
Mm -hmm. I was pissed? Hmm.

Robin
How would you, how you balance that? Like your knowledge, your idealistic, your concept, and then with the real world that is like really wild.

Py
Uh -huh. Ah, aha. Okay. Well, I guess I'm going to try to answer your question by just slowly going through the process in my head right now. So as I mentioned a little bit, I guess one of the reasons why I am who I am stems from my mental illness, right? So I suffer from... major depressive disorder basically depression and I went through therapy and still take my meds so the thing is when I was working as a consultant I Just felt like I didn't want to wake up. I didn't want to go to work. I didn't want to do anything and I felt like if I had to do something I didn't like or love I should just die So it

It drove me to try to find a way to get into the music business. So I love music as a listener, as a fan, but also wanted to work in the industry. So I try to find my way and eventually I did. And let's say that I had to convince my dad though. So I made like a hundred page presentation, sat down with him, presented to him. So he's a businessman, right?

Robin
Seriously?

Py
So I had to present my business model and everything. It's really stressful, but he eventually said, okay, yeah, go do it. So I got the green light. Yeah, that was on 2013 when I came back and presented that. So the thing is, yeah, because of that basis of not wanting to do what I don't like,

Robin
That's really cool. Dude, that's awesome.

Py
I had to find a way to do what I like, I love, and try to find ways to make it happen. That's just it. So let's say I'm a doer. I'm a thinker and a doer.

So I hope that kinda answers the question. It means that yes, I do have to compromise a little bit of my, you know, my theories, my principles to move forward. I also work in, well I was in the startup scene in Thailand as well, so that got me into innovation. So actually I also train, I do innovation trainings, especially on creativity and innovation. So innovation for me is doing whatever to make things work, right? Solving problems and sustainability, the key thing for it is also to move forward, no matter how small the steps they are. It's about progress. It's about making things better. So sometimes, yes, you have to compromise in a level, but if the result is that you're moving forward closer to your goal, to your vision, then that's what I will do.

Robin
That's cool. That's cool. I'm amazed with your process that you have to present. Like you have to pitch your dad. That's fucking cool, bro.

I won't do that. I just ran away from home and then like, I'm going to do this.

Py
Alright, well it's also because I am the first born son of a very Chinese kind of dad. So it's like I have all this responsibility that he put on me.

Robin
Okay so let's talk Fungjai. Do I pronounce it correctly “fung-jay”?

Py
Yes. Well, in Thai would be fang jai fang.

Robin
Oh, fung-ty.

Py
Fang means to listen, jai is the heart, listen to the heart. But in English it's also the Fang-jy kingdom, the kingdom of these living organisms. And the concept was, for the name came from our first hire, she's a designer. And so “Fang-jy” has a large biodiversity, right, just like the genres of music. Sometimes they are hard to find, might be in dark and damp places, kind of like sub genres and, you know, indie music. And then they spread through the wind with their spores, right? Same as music that goes through the air and then into our ears. So it's a great metaphor. And also in the Thai word, it's also great meaning.

Robin
Oh, that's a cool name. Okay. So, how did you get here? How do you get the Fungjai get into what it is now?

I believe Fungjai is highly influential in Thailand and probably now it's getting bigger. I know you have Fungjai in Indonesia as well.

Py
Yep, and Satria Ramadan is running it. Well, it started, Fungjai Indonesia is a different story, but starting with Fungjai, we need to move back to 2013 when I moved back to Thailand, pitched my dad, and then I started entering the startup community, going to these startup pitching competitions. So I wanted to start my own startup.

And one of the things that I saw in indie musicians in the States was that they were using all these platforms for different things. For distribution, marketing, booking, et cetera, et cetera. They were all using it on different platforms. And I was like, hmm, can I put them all in one platform just for Thai independent musicians? So that was my startup idea. But every time I went to pitch the judges would say like, “You're not focused!”. Why are you not focused? Focus on just one business model. And then I was like, I'm focused in trying to solve this one problem, which is to try to make independent musicians become more sustainable financially.

But then I didn't realize it until I found the founder of Fungjai, Sarun Pinyarat aka Top. He graduated in industrial design, graphic design. He was a Thai indie kid. So he was listening to Fat Radio, which was the independent music radio back in the day. And he was a big fan of like all these indie bands. And then when he went to study in Finland and then worked in Silicon Valley for a while, he was listening to music via Spotify. So he loved the platform and how it works.

So when he came back to Thailand in 2014, early 2014, he thought he wanted to start a Spotify for Thai independent music. So he went to pitch to the labels and bands and everybody and everybody said like, yeah, you're gonna fail. It's not gonna work. But he said like, you need to distinguish between feedback and noise, right? The real customers are the only ones who ever tried your product, not really the ones that listened to your idea. So he gathered a team of developers and they were able to start building this thing. I found them via my sister. My sister came to lunch, a family lunch one day with a brochure describing what Fungjai is and it's a music streaming platform for independent music.

And I thought like, hey, this might be a great thing to do with them. So I texted him and I met with the team, volunteered my Wednesdays evenings with them. And then when they are about to launch, I quit my job to join them full time. Right. So, well, the job that I was in back then was because my mom was nagging every day of me trying to get a real job because I was trying to do my own startup. But the job I got was at SAE, which is a sound audio engineering institution. So I quit that to join them full time, although they didn't have money to pay me. But Top graciously offered me 10,000 baht, which is like, I don't know, 250 US dollars per month from his savings to at least pay me pay some food.

So I joined the team and then that was the start of Fungjai. We released our public beta on Halloween, midnight of Halloween 2014. We invited three bands to do a live video streaming out from a bar/restaurant that we knew. And back in the day, there was no YouTube live, no Facebook live. We had to use a totally built up platform. And they sponsored us with providing the platform for free. Anyway, the bands did their live shows. We did some skits, had MCs. The band dressed up as ghosts and everything, face makeup. And then when we launched at midnight, the website crashed and it continuously crashed every 10 minutes for maybe five days.

Robin
Holy shit.

Py
And the reason was there were just so many people trying to get on the platform to listen to music. So that is when a bulb lit that, holy shit, people need this. People want this, but they never could get it from YouTube. They never could get it from Spotify because there's no indie music that is curated for these listeners on any platform. I mean, proper algorithms were not made yet for Thai indie music. So that's when we were able to launch.

Robin
That's great. So it wasn't anticipated, nobody knows that the idea was was valid.

Py
No, I mean the thing was we went to all these labels and we did road trips man I drove up to like Chiang Mai, Chiang Rai up in the north 9 hour drive. I drove three four days

Robin
I mean, the way that you pitch your dad, I believe you. I believe that you pitch everyone.

Py
Yeah.

Oh, and fun story. So I did North and Northeast road trips to meet with labels and local musicians and they did not understand what music streaming is. So we had to tell them, oh, it's like YouTube, but no pictures. And they're like, oh, okay. Listening to music online.

And the way we acquired music to test our product was a one -page contract saying like “We want to borrow your music for three months and if we fail, we're sorry”. That's it.

Robin
Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, because I was there as well. I remember I have a digital distribution. It was the first that is tailored for local music in Indonesia. It wasn't working, unfortunately, so I know how hard it is. It was in probably at the same period. I started at 2012, at the end of 2012 doing that. And it's really hard to convince the musicians.

Py
Yep, totally remember that.

Robin
Although at the end of the day, many of them (musicians) sign up, but it was really hard. And then to run the business itself was a special challenge. It's great to see you guys can survive this long and can make an impact. So what do you think is the key success factors. What do you think that makes Fungjai can go this far?

Py
I guess I'll compare it with the metaphor that I had for what a startup is. So, um, I think it was the guy who founded LinkedIn that said like building a startup is like building an airplane on the way from, well, while falling down a cliff, right. And hope you that you finish building it and can fly by the time you reach the ground.

Robin
That's a good fit.

Py
But my metaphor is like, you are a wilder beast that is during migration season, meaning that on this side of the river, you already ran out food. The other side of the river is green and lush and that's where the food is. But in the middle, this river has crocodiles, like lots and lots of crocodiles.
So if you stay on this side, you're going to die from starvation. If you go to the other side, you're going to live, you're going to eat, you're going to breed, you're going to have babies. But in the middle, you have possibility of death getting eaten by crocodiles.

So if you count all the crocodiles before going into the water, you would be too scared to cross. It's same like if you're going to start a startup, but then... If you do all your market research and everything, you're going to like, oh, yeah, we're going to fail.

So my metaphor is that you just start looking at your pathway, see how many crocodiles they are, trying the safest route. And then if a crocodile tries to come get you, try to swim away and try to get to the other side. So the thing is you need to have a very strong goal. It's crossing that river, you know.
And that's the same for a startup, same for a business. And you have to evade the crocodiles, which are the difficulties that will come along the way. So it's about survival. It's about the vision. It's about the goal. So that's the story.

Robin
I love it man. Okay, let's talk about other projects that you have: music festivals. I know you have all these ideas like having all these models that are tailored for the Thailand music scene. One of them is organizing festivals. Can you tell me about that?

Py
You mean like Maho Rasop festival?

Robin
So you have Maho Rasop Festival.

Py
Yes, and Axean and Bangkok Music City. So, okay, let's start with Maho Rasop.

Maho Rasop in Thai means festival. So it's festival, festival. It's just a funny pun that we put in.

But okay, back to 2013 again, the end of 2013, we were like, okay, we registered our company, we launched, what do we do next? So one of our ex-employees said, okay, we need to promote it. And probably the best way is to organize a concert. So we did that in January, and we were trying to find

Fungjai was registered one month after we launched the public beta. Now, so we wanted to promote it by organizing a concert. We invited six bands. And let's say that we weren't able to find sponsors. One of them that we almost secured pulled out two weeks before the concert date. But... Tiger beer swooped in and said like, hey, you guys are doing something interesting. Because the thing was we were going out to interview with lots of media and they saw us and said like, okay, we'll give you 50 cases of free beer. You just go sell it yourself.

And we're like, okay, at least we could get some money. And eventually that night we sold another 75 meaning that I had to do three trips to the supermarket to buy their beer to come out and sell. We lost a little bit of money, but that's the thing about doing concerts in Thailand. If you don't get cash sponsorship, sufficient cash sponsorship, you would never ever make profit, even though you sell out all your tickets. It's unfortunate for the cost and revenue model here.

But anyway, that taught us that there is a possibility of making money in the music business because music streaming did not make money. The thing in Thailand is that if you want to get, for example, well, we wanted to start with a freemium model and hopefully have a premium model tier later.

But because our indie music community is so small,
It means that advertisers do not want to pay for advertising. And also because, well, music was free, right? If we put a price on it, they're just gonna go listen to music somewhere else. And our goal was to try to spread music, especially music that people don't know about and don't want to listen to in the first place. If we put a price on it, nobody would discover these gems of independent music.

So we decided that okay we should keep Fungjai free, the platform, but we would monetize via events. And that was the start of our concert series. And then it turned into small festivals and Maho Rasop was the international music festival that was conceived by two more partners. So Fungjai,
was responsible in booking Thai artists. (Then) A Thai promoter that does Western bookings did the Western bookings. And Seen Scene Space focused in Asian bookings, Asian indie artists, for example. So three of us collaborated to create the Festival. And that was first conceived in 2018.

Robin
Oh, OK, that's cool. Bangkok Music City before that, yeah?

Py
No, Bangkok Music City came later, although the idea came before. So I was competing this idea with the Maho Rasop actually. Let's say that Bangkok Music City started its concept since 2013. But I started pitching in 2015 to a lot of government agencies, including... I think I went to meet the EU secretariat in Thailand to try to get European embassies to pitch in. Although it didn't work.

But one of the Thai government agencies, which is the Thailand Convention and Exhibition Bureau, said that, hey, there's another guy pitching the same idea. It's called Bangkok Music Capital. So also a BMC. And then they said like, hey, do you want to work together? So I met the guy, his name is Tom aka Pongsiri Hetrakul. And we talked and said like, okay, let's do this together. And yeah, have you met him? I'm not sure. But he runs.

Robin
I think I know that guy.

I haven't met him but I think I could... He's my Facebook connection I think. I don't know, I could be wrong. Let me check the whole... What's his name?

Py
Um...Pong Siri P O N G S I R I

Robin
Pongsiri Hetrakul?

Py
Yes, that's right. So he also runs, um,...

Robin
No, I met him in South by Southwest, I believe. You connect me with him.

Py
Ah, yeah. Alright. Honestly, I don't remember, but I guess I did.

Robin
Yeah i remember this, I know Pongsiri cool cool! All right go ahead man sorry!

Py
Yeah, so he also runs Nylon Thailand and Time Out Bangkok and also runs the first and best light festival, lighting festival in Thailand called Awakening. So he's a great person, great crazy motherfucker and looks like a nerd and I like that. I'm a nerd too. He plays percussions for Paradise Bangkok Molam International Band. So listeners, if you want to check that out, awesome. Yep, so we started collaborating and then we eventually launched in 2019 in Bangkok. So talking about the competition with Maho Rasop was that, yeah, because...

Py
Maho Rasop was a three-way collaboration with two other companies. I talked to Top and Top said like, okay, for 2018 this year, we want to launch Maho Rasop. Please back off a little bit so that they can get the sponsors, not me. So that kind of broke my heart. But yeah, eventually... I decided to run it with Tom (Pongsiri) and just do whatever the fuck we can to make it happen. So Bangkok Music City is a music conference and showcase festival held in Bangkok, right? But right after that, I mean, all the deals are going to happen already, but COVID came. So 2020, we did a hybrid with a much smaller size from eight stages down to three. And then the next year, 2021, we had to do a totally virtual one on Gather Town. So that's the platform with the little RPG 2D little avatar running around. But do you know Gather Town? Do you know what it is? https://gather.town.

Robin
I'm not familiar with it.

Py
So it's a cool platform. So if you're able to find it, these little avatars in that there was a showcase with a metal band playing virtually and there were these people running around with their avatars just going up, down, left, right, up, down, left, right, up, down, left, you know, just doing a little mosh pit, doing a mosh pit. So that was fun.

So Axean was conceived in 2020 with Southeast Asian friends who met via music conferences around the world. And then we wanted to do something for our region. Southeast Asian music is not known in the world. So we wanted to do something about it. So we started a virtual music showcase.
It was called ASEAN Music Showcase Festival when it first started, but we had to change the name in 2020... 2022. But that's another story.

Yeah, so that's the second showcase festival I co -founded. But for Axean.

Robin
Who are the folks behind Axean?

Py
just so many people. Starting with David from Singapore, Satria from Indonesia, Mak from Malaysia, Ian and MC from Philippines. There's Mayen Hang from Vietnam, Joff, Filipino living in Vietnam back then. And then there's like Andy from Cambodia, lots of people. Kanita from Laos. So let's say that...

Robin
I need to interview those people.

Py
You know some of them, right?

Robin
I need to interview those people. Yeah, I know Mak and Satria.

Py
Yeah, I think that I'll take us elsewhere.

Robin
So Axean, tell me about it.

Py
Hmm tell you about Axean. Well, I did say a little bit about it, right? So it started with five countries first. So Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, right?

So, four bands per country. Each of us had to recruit bands to record their live performance. And the video was to be broadcasted live on, that time was Facebook Live. And we invited delegates from all over the world to watch it. And...
we set up a Zoom meeting on the Monday after the event. So it was a two-day event, Saturday, Sunday, broadcasted during the evenings. And we got them to meet with delegates, and there were some bookings for other virtual festivals. And well, that was the start of it.

Yeah, we did the broadcast in Thailand. I got funding from Thailand Convention & Exhibition Bureau (TCEB), the Thai government agency, to run it. And David also got some funding from the National Arts Council in Singapore to support the video production in Singapore and also support some of the operations. But the bands were not paid. We told them that we had to educate them what a showcase festival is, what the concept and the goal is. And they had to meet with the delegates and try to find opportunities whilst we help guide them, you know, of what to do, what to talk about, what their goals should be.

Because, well, I guess we can jump into what showcase festival concepts are. Right? So a showcase festival is basically a trade show of some sort. It's an expo. Right? So in an expo or an industry showcase, you have this convention hall and people would have to rent out to rent these booths to showcase their product, give away some free samples, give away brochures and people would come and talk to them and then maybe they can do business.

Well in the music industry the booths would become stages so the bands have to rent the stages, the back line, the production and to get people into that venue, come see the show, and then the manager would go out with business cards, try to get contacts, and then try to make business afterwards. So in an industry showcase, the exhibitor has to pay for the production of the booth, pay for the rental, the booth space.

And for the musician, the bands they have to pay for or their management or the label pays for the show production. But in the music world, as you know, musicians don't like to play for free, right? And they feel like the showcase festivals are taking advantage of them. But the thing is the concept probably hasn't been educated well or it's because that people have a different opinion on showcase festivals nowadays. But anyway, we had to educate our markets and the bands that we approach that this is what the concept is, what your goal should be and what you should get out of it.

Robin
Right. So how far it went? Like how far by means how far the bands now understand and then what's the result? Are you seeing any result?

Py
More and more bands are starting to understand. The first year was always difficult. With Bangkok Music City, it was definitely difficult, but we've got really lucky. We got 59 Thai bands and 20 international bands to showcase at the first Bangkok Music City. The next year, we did the hybrid showcase. So we had three stages. And we were hoping to sell tickets, right, to make some money, because we lost a lot of money the first year.

But anyway, there was some drama in the music scene in Thailand. There was a festival one week before us that had some trouble with some artists. There was an artist who spoke on stage publicly that, hey, this festival doesn't pay us enough money. We should ban this festival something. And then there was...

Robin
Oh shit, okay.

Py
There was another band that was about to showcase at Bangkok Music City, went through all the workshops that I did, that I educated, and then posted online saying that, hey, this festival pays just a bit, right? The other festival that's happening next week doesn't pay anything at all. And like, holy hell. Oh, that caused like a lot of drama.

So we decided to return all the, you know, refund all the tickets, make it free, and use that as an opportunity to educate the market all over again.

Robin
Shit, alright.

Py
Thus, it was a slow process. But anyway, because Bangkok Music City had to happen during COVID, right? It didn't really get much success, but there were some bands that started getting traction from the contacts they made. For example, I think H 3 F was talking to Orbis from Taiwan about a Taiwan show since before COVID, but when COVID came they didn't, but after COVID they eventually got to Taiwan, did plenty of shows. So they were educated enough to still keep on doing it and did a lot of international shows afterwards. I would not claim that it was because of us, but I think that we were in their progress of international growth. As for Axean, we had some good case studies and actually the best case study was not even from a Southeast Asian artist or band. It was an Indian artist. They're called Jatayu. They did our first physical showcase in Singapore in 2022 and they got booked by Fuji Rock (Festival - Japan).

So that's one of them. And then there were Cambodian artists that were booked by Thai festivals, but they were just up and coming already. Their music video was just crazy millions of views called VannDa. He's the biggest rapper out of Cambodia. He started out dirt poor, man. He was selling coconuts in the streets and then... Oh, his story is very inspiring. He was dirt poor. He got into the city. His dad gave him a $100 bill, a US $100 bill. And he found his way into these, how do you call that, internet cafes. And he started making beats on those internet cafe computers and started rapping on them. And then and he got picked up. Now he's the most famous guy in Cambodia. And yep, he did our showcase.

Robin
That's cool. There's plenty of successful Cambodian rappers here in (California) LA. There's a big community of Cambodian rappers. I know it because of my coworkers who is Cambodian. And he's has sleeve tattoos. He has a lot of friends who are rappers LA and then he showed me a lot of YouTube videos of them rapping like tough South Asian gangsters it's pretty cool actually yeah that's cool to hear bro! Alright so festivals are just one side of of your expertise.

How about the digital platforms and startups that you mentioned several times already. But how do you keep up with the trends in digital? Especially in Thailand and then how you implement them. I live in Silicon Valley so my perspective is from digital lens, you know, digital first, everything is digital first. So what do you think?

Py
I get my knowledge a lot from YouTube, honestly. So I follow a few YouTube channels that talk about tech and economics and politics. So I take these inputs all the time. So I get to learn about whatever digital trend there is and economic trends there are. But...

Robin
What are you seeing?

Py
I guess it's only for me to know what's happening around me and I would still do whatever I can to achieve my vision. I guess what I'm trying to say is you need all the knowledge that you can get no matter how small the snippets are to paint a world around your idea to know that there's opportunities, there's threats, there's little tidbits of things that you need to think about when you do stuff.

So for example, there was one of the events that we had delegates from China and Taiwan. And if you know about international politics a little bit, China and Taiwan have a huge tension right now. And back then, I was told by the Chinese delegates that they cannot attend an event that recognizes Taiwan being an independent country. So if we want to tag these Taiwanese delegates as coming from Taiwan that is somehow recognizing them as an independent country. So I told the Taiwanese like, hey, how can we do this? I Googled and there's a way to call you guys as, you know, Taiwan China or greater China and then from Taiwan the island and they were furious. They were like, oh Taiwan is my country, you cannot make me change the name of my country. If you tell me to do that, I'm not going to participate in your event. I was like, oh damn, what do I do? So...

Robin
Right, right.

Py
The problem, the solution was to just say that these delegates are from East Asia, these delegates are from Southeast Asia, and mention their city names instead of country names.

Robin
That is a good workaround.

Py
And yeah, but the thing is, it worked. It allowed people to be on the platform and not get banned by their own governments. And the thing is, at that time, I didn't really understand what the tension was about. I only knew a little bit, but now I went to try to find information about Taiwan and China, and now I know a lot more. Thus...

Robin
Did it work?

Py
This is just an example of learning about tidbits of information to paint your world and try to navigate it. Yeah.

Robin
Yeah, that's a good perspective. In the States it's a really hot thing. Taiwan and China, the mainland China is like really big. I can learn a thing or two about that. Because I'm certain that I would like to feature folks from Taiwan and folks from China as well here. There's abundant resource. Exactly. So there's abundant resources in there. I know Taiwan, there's a lot of folks there, Orbis, folks that we met there. China is like a really big market. That's a good thing to know though. Thank you for open up for that. It's yeah, and I'm glad it worked for you.

Py
Yeah, but this also works with technology. So if you know about AI, you know about generative AI, you know about music AI, it kind of helps you answer or let's say that enter a conversation and know what you're talking about. So in the music industry, there are definitely the, you know, the executives, the musicians, and they're going to want to strike a conversation. And sometimes you need to get into conversations of various topics and knowing a lot of stuff kind of helps you talk to them.

Robin
Right. So about the, we're still in transformation into digital, because (I believe we're not there yet. We're not like totally, probably we will never be totally digital, but we're still going there with the introduction of AI now. It's really something that people are talking about every day here in (Silicon Valley’s) everyday life. So how do you see that will impact the scene in Southeast Asia particularly in Thailand in the short term what will happen with the development of AI technology and and what it can disrupt?

Py
Hmm. Let's say that history repeats itself in a way, but let's quote Berserk. Do you read Berserk?

Robin
No.

Py
Okay, so Berserk is a Japanese manga and turned into anime but the concept is like history.

Robin
Okay. How to spell his name?

Py
Berserk: B-E-R-S-E-R-K - Berserk

Robin
All right, go ahead.

Py
Alright, so I think I'm not exactly sure of the words but the concept is history repeats itself not entirely but as a spiral. So events tend to be similar but changes a little bit. So it's like the time goes down, it spirals like oh it's a cycle but it's not exactly the same. So for example the music business industry history.

Starting from the late 1800s, there were traveling musicians. Musicians traveled from town to town, city to city, playing for people. And then print, you know, the print industry, well, let's say that the beginning of the music industry, the modern music industry started from the print industry. So when, how do you call it, sheet music was being, was, yeah.

That's right, that's where music copyright first started. So sheet music was printed, people bought them, they played in their own households, they were able to play it on the piano, so the musicians were like, oh, people are playing themselves now, so what do we do? The thing is, they could buy the sheet music and then play in bars. So instead of traveling, they can stick to one place. So that's one. But then there were mechanical pianos.

So I was like, ha, you know mechanical pianos are the rolls of paper with holes you put into a mechanical piano and then it plays itself. So now pianists and musicians are like, oh damn, what do we do now? Pianos can play themselves. And then the publishing companies were like, hey, we had to pay royalties for the songwriters for this and you're doing this piano roll, you gotta pay us and then the mechanical royalties were born. So every role of piano rolls were then charged with mechanical royalties, which is still now implemented. So technology came in, a solution came in. Then there was radio. Oh, radio is going to destroy live music.

But then... the musicians played on radio to support their vinyl sales. Oh, I totally forgot about the vinyls. Vinyls came and then live musicians were like, oh, now you can play music at home. You don't need to come out to bars anymore. So, and then there was radio and then there were cassette tapes and then there were CDs and then there was...

MP3s, you know, technology always disrupts the music industry and the music industry fights back adopting these technologies. So it just happens again and again and again, but in a different way every time. So with AI, right now we are like, oh, AI is going to destroy everything. But the thing is, we used to panic about this every 10 years or so.

Robin
Right.

Py
But humans might forget things and yeah, everything is out here to destroy us every 10 years. So are we going to be destroyed in another 10 years with AI? I don't think so. I think there will be a way to, you know, work with it and make it work.

Right?

But the problem about what we have now is that technology advances much, much faster than it used to. So the thing is we need to also adapt fast, faster, to be able to control it, to be able to regulate it.

And there's an airplane flying over my head, so can you hear that? Okay. Okay.

Robin
Yeah, it's fine. I mean, you're sitting outside, so that happened.

Py
Just gotta wait for it a little bit.

Robin
Let's wait for a bit.

Py
But that's the lesson. It's like, don't panic because there's a new thing in town. Find a way to make it work. Meaning that, yeah, AI can generate lyrics and music and also even have, like, I don't know, AI voices that sound just like the real person. But I don't know how the problem's going to be solved.

Robin
All right.

Py
But there should be a way to adapt to it. Songwriters might be able to write more songs faster and then generate more income through the platforms that are available to them. Like for example, there's this... that, oh, musicians are getting paid less and less nowadays because of streaming, because of whatever. But the thing is, if you were born 50 years ago and you wanted to make a record, you had to have a record label to pay for all the recordings because they were so expensive. But nowadays you can buy these at the store and record at home and distribute it all over the world, you know, with a click. Right?

Robin
Right.

Py
So the opportunities nowadays is much more open to everyone. Thus, that's why there are so many more published musicians and artists in the world. Another airplane.

Robin
That's good man. That means the economy is working. There's a lot of flights, and then the economy is working.

Py
Ha ha ha.

Yeah, but yet again, history repeats itself, but not entirely. We get into crises every few years, and it just happens again and again. We just need to adapt.

Robin
That's cool. That's the spirit. So let me ask you about you've been you've been doing a lot in relatively quite a short time actually. What's your most memorable experience so far? Like is there any thing that is like, that life's changing or...
you know what was the most memorable thing that you've experienced so far or the highlight of your if you can choose.

Py
Man, I think I've gone through many lives in these few years. So, I'm like wearing so many hats, doing so many things, playing many roles. But one big problem that I have comes back to my mental illness again, is my depression. For example, When I first achieved the first Bangkok Music City, it was a success, albeit losing quite a lot of money. People talked about it. The delegates loved it. And they spread the word throughout the world with their contacts and friends. And I did not feel proud of myself at all. It just felt like a daze coming out of it.

...plane again. I think, do you want me to move by the way? Because, oh okay. Oh can you hear the plane?

Robin
No, it's fine, because I can hear you. I can hear both.

Py
Okay, but hopefully it's not too bad for the audience. That's what I'm worried about. Okay, so. All right, so the thing was I did not feel proud of myself. I did not feel like I achieved anything. And I was like, hmm, what's wrong with me? And I remembered my psychologist telling me that, psychiatrist and psychologist saying that if I don't feel sad anymore, I can probably reduce my meds. I was like, okay, let me try reducing my meds. And then just a day after, I started crying uncontrollably. There were so pent up emotions, so much pent up emotions in me and I couldn't control myself. And I was like, oh damn, I just could not process what I felt. So after that, my wife brought me to a meditation camp for eight days, seven nights. And the first like six nights, we were not allowed to talk to each other. I mean, not allowed to talk to anyone in the camp. They took our phones, they separated families. So whoever was husband and wife, father, mother, what, whatsoever relationship are separated into different dorms. But that gave me some quiet time to think, right?

So what did i think about was basically uh... just gotta move forward, man. It's like, yeah, every event will give you material that will help get you forward towards your goal. So it's like, is anything memorable? There are so many, many, many memorable things that I've done that I've achieved, but it's not like... or it's not like the end of my pathway. If I stop to celebrate, the thing is I have another job right away.

Py
...it doesn't really answer your question.

Robin
Okay, so how do you manage that then? With all the things that you do, how does that affect you, affect your performance or...
How does the work affect yourself?

Py
Hmm, okay, let's say

Robin
Because I know mental illness, mental problem is a big problem, it's a serious problem. And I'm glad that you willing to open up about that. I'm just curious, how do you balance things?

Py
Yeah.
Mmm, sometimes I don't know either. I just have a really big basket, I guess. So I do everything. And I think there's a saying that if you want to get something done, find the one who's always busy. So I took that mindset to heart. So I always keep busy. I just keep pushing forward. If there's a deadline, I have to finish before the deadline comes. Pretty much that. And if it gets closer to my goal, I'm less sad. Let's say that. Less disappointed in myself.

Robin
Okay.

Py
I think that everyone has a different way of managing their mental health, their energy, their well-being, their happiness. And not every method is perfect. But if you can find a way to move forward and still keep your family happy, that's already great. But do find signs of where it's going to go down a destructive path. So this is also a mention to everyone in the audience that if there's a red flag, address it, try to fix it. And just try to move forward if your goal and vision is clear, just move forward, no matter how small the steps are.

Robin
Right, right. Okay, so let's talk about the future. What's the what's the upcoming project?

Py
What's my upcoming project? The next one that is happening now or soon is the Axean 2024 in September between 27th and 29th of September and we're moving from Singapore to Bali and we don't even have a main sponsor yet.

Robin
Bali, that's nice. September. Okay.

Py
The crazy thing is that last year we had a really good event last year and we were approached by the Ministry of Tourism and Creative Economy of Indonesia. They reached out to us via Satria and said like, hey, why don't do an event in Bali and we're going to support, you know, pay for this and that. We said like, okay, let's do it in Bali. But then when they had an election and everything just went south. Everything went quiet. So we just had to...

Robin
Right. Yeah, they have a new president now.

Py
Yep. So we already were determined to do it in Bali. So we said like, okay, let's bite our teeth and go through. So we were determined.

Robin
I think if I can give you advice on that, I think they still keep the same department, like what do you call it? Tourism and Creative Economy. They usually sack the minister, but the directors below, they still keep them because they like full -time federal government employees. So if you have a contact at Director level, you probably will still have a chance to get support. I know some directors there. I can give you the contact if you need. I don't know if it’ll work, but I can think of someone. I'll figure it out. I'll get back to you sometime next week.

Py
Oh, that would be great. Alright. Well, that is because I didn't contact them directly. It was through Satria. So I'll get back to you on that and then also discuss with Satria. Alright.

Robin
Sure, sure, because I don't know what he knows already, so...

Py
Yeah.

Robin
Yeah, yeah, I'll be happy to help you.

Py
Thanks, man.

Robin
Alright, so that's the closest. Axean is the closest.

Py
The next one for the company is Maho Rasop Festival. That's like the last weekend of November. But I'm not involved in that operationally. My job at Maho Rasop is to have a private tent to get all my guests in there and get myself and them drunk. So my job is to entertain.

Robin
Alright. So you're kind of entertainer of Thailand.

Py
Yeah, pretty much. And when I introduce myself at conferences and showcase festivals, I would introduce myself as, Hi, I'm Py, the friendly drunk Thai guy. And it seems like it's a good branding because people remember me from that.

Robin
Right, right.

Py
But then next project is Bangkok Music City 2025 in January, the last weekend of January. So it has been absent for three years because of COVID, because of political issues, because of funding issues, because of competition, et cetera, et cetera. But now we're coming back with a new partner that I'm not allowed to announce yet publicly.

Robin
Okay.

Py
But when the time comes, you'll know who it is. And the thing is, we hope that it's going to be the biggest and best one yet.

Robin
That's good to hear. Yeah, keep us updated, please. So...
What will be the future, Pi? What will be in the music in Southeast Asia in the next 10 years?

Py
I think I can say in general, let's say Southeast Asia. So more and more Asians, more and more Southeast Asians are getting recognized in the West. So one of them to thank is 88 Rising, for example. 88 Rising picked up Rich Brian right, and then featured a lot of Asian artists, including Southeast Asian artists, into the American market. But then in the European market, there's a totally different set of Asian artists that are penetrating the market.

For example, Modern Sky, which is one of the biggest independent music companies out of China, has a subsidiary, Modern Sky UK, and they are exporting Chinese, yes, through David Pichilingi, I can't pronounce his last name. But yeah, so that's the bridge, right? Yeah.

Robin
David? Yeah, I know David.

Py
So that's something. I mean, these are gradual, but with the trends that we have of Asian artists being recognized by the Western market through these bridges, mediaries, I think Asian music would be spread out throughout the world more and more.

But the thing is, it's probably through the mediums of the mainstream more than indie as of now. Meaning that it has to be kind of like a mainstream genre. But the thing is, there's this undercurrent of independent music or non -mainstream music. And what we can thank is also because of social media and new technologies that gets niche demand and niche supply to match. And this is what I believe in for the future is that we wouldn't really have a mainstream but rather several mainstreams or several sub-genres or several communities that would connect. So I think we are going to become more segregated in a way, but also united in a way. So there's this case that was really interesting.

There's this festival in Thailand held by Cat Radio, which is a descendant of Fat Radio. So they said like back in the day, Fat Radio at their Fat Festivals, the fans would stay in front of the stage waiting for the next artist to hop on, right? So it's the same audience, new artist. But nowadays, whenever one artist leaves, the audience leaves and a new set of audiences come in. So instead of the internet making it more democratic or making, well, let's say making people discover more music, it actually, because of being on demand, people are able to dig deep into the artists that they already like so that they would listen to all their songs, be able to sing all their songs. There are many topics and subtopics in this is like, where's the future of music? Is it going to be both mainstream and non mainstream. It's going to be segregated, but also united.

Robin
Okay.

Py
So it's a crazy concept.

Robin
No, I get it. I think it's... I guess I'm seeing it from the
politics point of view here in the US. You know, it's really tense. And with the invent of, with more people coming to the internet using social media, people are not becoming more open. People are becoming more segmented. People are becoming more, like you said, deeper. The one that is into one, um,
presidential candidate, they become like more intense to it, more like more diehard and they put it on the profile now. They put like, I support this guy. Like it's almost like it become the identity now. It's kind of crazy if you think about it. So it's probably happened as well in the music. That makes sense. That really makes sense actually.

Py
It's human nature man and I also got into understanding human psychology a little bit more and a lot of things that happen is because of human psychology and also nature. For example, there are studies of chimpanzees that there is a critical limit of their groups. So if they reach 30 or 40, they start to break away from each other and form like smaller groups. There's this famous chimpanzee war that has been happening for decades already. You can go Google that later. But the thing is, humans are also the same. Chimpanzee war. You can find that out.

It's also the same for humans and they say like the limit for humans is around 150. So the thing is you can only keep about 150 people in your societal circle pretty much. That you can pretty much have a good relationship to only about 150 people. If more than that it's kind of hard to keep track basically. So that's why back in the day, villages were pretty much about that size. Right. And nowadays we have big cities, we have social media, we have thousands of friends on Facebook. But how many do you actually keep track of, follow up with, talk to, catch up? You know, it's still around that 150 limit. And, and because of that,

And also because of wanting recognition in society, you have to generate your identity. You have to form relationships through identity. And thus, it kind of explains why the segregation, why the unity, why the music genres, why the political agendas and groups and everything.

So I use this kind of thought process with analyzing whatever I do. Yeah.

Robin
Yeah, that's a good point to analyze, like to implement that in the music industry, because that will also helps you to understand the market and create a product that fits that market, right? It's something that you can empathize and then learn from it.

So I guess we've been... (talking) one and a half hour. I wish I have all my guests are like you, like well spoken and can speak. So I don't have a lot to speak. But I don't know. And thank you for that, it makes my job easier. This is my first episode ever, so... That's really helpful. All right. So where if the audience want to follow you, where should they find you? Where can they find you? Websites and everything.

Py
You would reach the music streaming platform. But then we post a lot on social media, so going to like all our socials, whether Facebook, Instagram, or whatever, it's HelloFungjai. H-E-L-L-O Fangjai. But then I'm not involved in that at all. I don't even get to see those posts.

I get anxiety seeing those. So my work is more on AXEAN Festival, so axeanfestival.com. And the socials are just AXEAN Festival, whether Instagram or Facebook. But the thing is we don't post too much unless it's closer to the date. But then I have my personal website, pypiyapong: P-Y-P-I-Y-A-P-O-N-G dot com. That's where I post some blogs. And my Facebook page is PYFUNGAI. So P-Y-F-U-N-G-J-A-I.

Robin
Alright cool. Do you have anything to say before we close?

Py
I'm trying to think of it. So I'm trying to think of who would be your target audience. So one, I guess, okay, well, who do you think is your target audience?

Robin
Should be Americans. I never see these abundant resources outside of America being enough discussed in America itself. So I'd like to bring this inside. I want to bring this, what I know before I move to the US, bring it to US. So I hope it's American audience.

Py
Okay, it's an American audience.

Robin
Because if you know American, Thai American is American. Indonesian American is American. So everyone is there here. So there must be some niche that I can target here.

Py
Yeah. So my guess would be one, Americans who are interested or open to knowing about the Southeast Asian and greater Asian music industries and landscapes and especially geared towards non-mainstream music in the West. And they're interested in our development and also what would work in the US market. That's kind of my guess. So...

Robin
Yeah, kind of...

Py
It could be musicians, independent or professional. It could be music professionals, executive managerial or administrations. Just wanting to know about the global trends. So let's say Southeast Asia is about 1.5 % of the music industry, the music industry in Southeast Asia, recording and live music. So we're very, very small.

But if you count Southeast Asian economy, like ASEAN for example, ASEAN combined is within the top five of the largest economies in the world. So the top economies are like the US, Japan, the EU, China, India for example, we are in the top five.

It means that we have a lot of people, 600, 700 million people altogether. We have a big economy. Thus, the music industry is just very underdeveloped as of now. But it also means that there is much potential to grow, right?

There's a disparity there. Like we are super big market, but our music industry is like 1.5%. So I think it's going to catch up. It's going to catch up with the economy and it's also going to catch up in terms of recognition in the world. Thus, I think that future growth of the music industry, the global music industry would come from Southeast Asia, whether sooner or later. I don't know if it's like one year or 10 years, but it's going to come.

So this is what I'm going to leave with, is that there is an opportunity for you to invest in Southeast Asian music industry. There's opportunity for you to come grow in Southeast Asian economy as well. If you're like a band looking to find a new market to perform in, tour in, Southeast Asia is a growing economy that you can try out. And also bring artists into your own markets. For example, 88 Rising already started it. There's lots and lots of talent in Southeast Asia that is unknown to the world and if you are able to bring them to tour in your markets I think that's also an interesting business idea.

Robin
Right.

Py
So I'll end with that.

Robin
That's very cool. I can sleep well tonight because of this. Bye. Thank you so much for your time.

Py
Thank you so much Robin. It's been great catching up with you and I hope we can catch up some more after this podcast and I'll say bye to the audience. Well, hope to see you. I'm Py the friendly drunk Thai guy. See me one day hopefully. Bye.

Robin
Of course. See you in a bit bro. Bye.

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